Author Topic: Woke Culture  (Read 30238 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #420 on: November 27, 2021, 05:44:57 am »
Maybe merit doesn't exist in your world. I suppose that's hardly a surprise since you don't appear to have any. But it certainly has in mine.
Hey! Welcome back Argus.
Funny Funny x 1 View List

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #421 on: November 27, 2021, 05:46:29 am »
Hey! Welcome back Argus.

Argus posted facts.  This guy just calls people 'elitist' and 'arrogant' while expecting everyone to just accept his assertions and proclamations (like a King).

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #422 on: November 27, 2021, 05:48:43 am »
Argus posted facts.  This guy just calls people 'elitist' and 'arrogant' while expecting everyone to just accept his assertions and proclamations (like a King).
I'll take your word for it. I'm honestly not reading anything that closely, given I haven't been on this forum in ages. lol
Love Love x 1 View List

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #423 on: November 27, 2021, 06:54:18 am »
His EDI statement.

The academic team consists of the PK group. Our group is highly diverse, being populated by men and women from many countries and religions and cultures. Our group is also highly diverse in terms of intellectual background and research areas of expertise. Our group has a long history of inclusion of women into ultrafast laser science, which has some of the lowest populations of women in STEM. The corporate partners are also highly diverse, spanning several countries of origin with a number of women in STEM in key roles for Photon Etc and few-cycle. We will recruit a diverse array of students and HQP during the course of this project. We will hire the most qualified people based upon their skills and mutual interests, with outreach activities to help. We will advertise in Women in STEM organizations. We will recruit via word of mouth, noting my recent female PhD is now on a tenure track position in Physics in Germany. She is now one of the leading young women in physics in the globe, who was trained and mentored in my system.

https://twitter.com/DorianAbbot/status/1461447368491028482

I applaud you for posting something of substance.

Indeed it seems he submitted more than it spells out in the NP article, so I retract any statements that said he posted "one sentence" or a "short response" etc.  And now we are moving forward with the discussion - the Tweet quotes the NSERC response which was NOT mentioned in the article. 

We can see that it has nothing to do with quotas, merit or what he talked about in the article.  There's a VERY SPECIFIC REASON GIVEN:

"The training plan did not adequately describe specific concrete practices .... vague or generic statements are not sufficient"

Why was that not mentioned in the article, Centrist or Mr. Nipples ?  Why did they leave that out ?

Instead they wrote the Prof's response:

"But I think it’s okay to say I believe that equality is a morally valid position. I believe that meritocracy is a morally valid position.”

Why didn't he provide the EDI training plan, which he knew he needed (because he had past submissions declined) and which would have been accepted ?  He purposefully sabotaged his submission and then MISREPRESENTED the reasons why he was rejected.

If you have a principled take on this, you should agree that this is not the situation that was highlighted.

-----

I do think there's a liberal bias, groupthink etc. in education but as I have posted most of them seem to be reported with inflated or even false claims.  Let's continue to look at the facts, though.

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #424 on: November 27, 2021, 06:55:03 am »
Maybe merit doesn't exist in your world. I suppose that's hardly a surprise since you don't appear to have any. But it certainly has in mine.

Another snappy Zinger... man, where do you get these ?  Do you just think them up ??? 🤔

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #425 on: November 27, 2021, 06:58:59 am »
Right because the people in gov who give the grant want researchers to have some hiring criteria based on diversity/inclusion.  Skin colour, gender etc is not merit.  Prof wanted to hire on merit, thus was denied.

So what are you doing now ?  Are you stepping back that there was hiring criteria quotas being demanded but NOW saying that they are doing this to put them in place in the future ?

This would mean your views on what happened were shown to be incorrect but you're doubling down because the government will do them someday ?

Quote
Of course he was trying to make a point:  the requirements for the grant are discriminatory and they are unjust because they don't align with the concept of the basic equality of treatment of people regardless of skin colour, gender etc.

Again, ignoring the point.  We now have a Tweet where NSERC explains the problem with the submission. The National Post article did NOT post the reason anywhere, nor did the prof explain it in the article.

Do you have a response or are you going to double down again ?


 

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #426 on: November 27, 2021, 07:00:26 am »
Anyone who denies there are quotas has sh1t in his ears as well as his head, or is just full of sh1t overall. Everyone knows the pressure in government organizations to hire and promote POC. It's constantly brought up in discussions about hiring. My girlfriend is an EX2 and she's under constant pressure to hire minorities and women - any minority or woman.

Someone asked to provide reasons... responds with you're "full of ****" and "everybody knows this"...

Also calls people arrogant when they post facts...

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #427 on: November 27, 2021, 07:05:47 am »
But his application for a $450,000 grant this month from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC) was turned down because, the council said, “the Equity, Diversity and Inclusion considerations in the application were deemed insufficient.”

His grant application a year ago to the federally funded National Frontiers in Research Fund  — whose object is “to support world-leading interdisciplinary, international, high-risk/high-reward, transformative and rapid-response Canadian research” — was also turned down on similar grounds
.

LOL. There it is again. This sense of disbelief that YOU have pronounced upon a subject and yet someone still seems to disagree! Whatever can be wrong with them! They're just not as enlightened and thoughtful and insightful as you are, standing up on that pedestal you built for yourself. If only you could find a way to educate them so they thought exactly as you do!

So how exactly do you make the leap from the response deemed insufficient, to believing he was required to hire according to quotas ?

You even posted the NSERC response, Mr. Centrist.  Did you not read that ?

Quote
I've come across woker posters but never one with such a massive sense of superiority as you display. Do you constantly bang into trees and poles because you walk around with your nose so high in the air you can't see in front of you?

Oddly, I don't believe I am superior.  You, on the other hand, throw insults and mostly (with one exception) refuse to explain your godly opinions.

I have asked a question - let's see if you can respond. 

Again - the NSERC response was very specific about the shortcomings in the professor's submissions and he knew this based on past submissions.  ( Actually, every academic submitting NSERC grants for money know how it works of course)  He went to the National Post and neither he, nor the article posted the reason given.

How exactly do you make the leap that they were requiring him to not hire based on merit again ?  You're parroting fake ideas that are made for illogical and tribal culture-warriors like yourself to eat up like guinea pigs eat pellets.

It's quite boring...

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #428 on: November 27, 2021, 07:35:28 am »
He fundamentally disagrees with the morality of the EDI agenda, and especially the part about increasing representation of certain groups through hiring decisions.  Because he would not submit to the woke EDI requirements he lost the grants.  Or he could have just rolled over and submitted to their EDI requirements even if he morally disagrees with them.

 
The prof never mentioned anything about quotas.  He said he hires on merit and not based on identity.

Ok - I retract anything about quotas... you're right that isn't stated.  I'll stick to the implication that someone is not hiring based on merit.

If he fundamentally disagrees with the agenda and refuses to submit anything to do with it then fine.  Here we are.  The Centrist has posted the NSERC response.  Again, the article didn't quote the reason given... the implication throughout is that EDI is about the idea of merit being discarded.

I looked at section D of the best practices guide.  There's nothing explicit in there about merit being discarded. 
 
   Here's from the best practices guide of EDI for the application:  https://www.chairs-chaires.gc.ca/program-programme/equity-equite/best_practices-pratiques_examplaires-eng.aspx#d

"Assess whether the pool of applicants is sufficiently diverse (the program’s equity target percentages that are principally based on the makeup of Canada’s population could be used as target percentages, i.e., 22% racialized minorities, 4.9% Indigenous Peoples, 50.9% women and 7.5% persons with disabilities). If the pool of applicants is not large or diverse enough, extend the application deadline, or review the job posting more critically for potential barriers and re-post it."

Quote
Why would this matter?  Why would applicants need to match the general population numbers? 

Ok - well by researching something and finding something interesting you have shown why you are a class above The Centrist. 

Let's look at this.  "Need to" isn't stated there.  What it does say is you have to re-post if your first post returns a pool that isn't large or diverse enough.  I suspect that they found in the past that there may be a barrier or something wrong with how it was posted.   

I would say that reposting a job application to correct how it was done is innocuous however if they retracted the job or hired people who were unable to do the job then that would raise a concern.

So with this issue you have found I'm open to the idea that it could lead to poor hiring practices.

Quote

The Liberal government is filled with and led by socially far-left nutters that are using grant applications to ensure compliance of their social agenda and disincentivizing criticism of it by refusing grant money.

You're just parroting what the right-wing ****-disturber press squeals over and over.  Given that the raised a giant stink like this over lack of training provisions, do you really think exclusionary practices would be ignored by them? 

 
Quote

Part of EDI is what I agree with, that would be removing barriers for minority groups.  Re:  understanding people with different background or needs from your own or from what is usual.  ie:  Aboriginals may have different ways of communicating or understand nature.  So lack of cultural awareness can create unconscious bias.  Or ie: people with disabilities may have different working routines that you don't fully understand.  These are all valid to recognize

Yes - you are starting to see that EDI promotes merit.  The first female project managers in the company I worked for after graduation were simply the best project managers we had.  So why did we have to accommodate them, curtail the old-boys behaviour ?  Why did we ask each other why women didn't apply to work there ?  There were lots of men who were "good enough" who wanted the job right ? 

Explain this to The Centrist please.


Quote
The other part is that which I and professor disagree with, which is hiring practices that ensure "proper" representation and diversity so it more closely matches the general population and making hiring decisions which are at least in part based on a person's identity.   

What's mind-boggling is that you continue to stand against something that hasn't been shown to be happening and proudly and defiantly so.

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #429 on: November 27, 2021, 07:36:52 am »
I'll take your word for it. I'm honestly not reading anything that closely, given I haven't been on this forum in ages. lol

Here's the progress report:

none.  🥴
Funny Funny x 1 View List

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10191
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #430 on: November 27, 2021, 06:56:45 pm »
Let's look at this.  "Need to" isn't stated there.  What it does say is you have to re-post if your first post returns a pool that isn't large or diverse enough.  I suspect that they found in the past that there may be a barrier or something wrong with how it was posted.
Just saw the actual full answer posted by the prof and the response by the org denying the grant.

The prof's answer seemed fair and he pointed out all the diversity in projects he has done, however he didn't explain anything he was proactively doing other than hiring over merit.  Nothing wrong with that in general, but also not what the org was looking for.  The org was fair in that they gave the prof a chance to expand on the EDI section and resubmit the application.  What we don't quite know is what the prof would have to say in order to please the org enough the get approved.    Accommodating disabled students etc would be one thing, but doing all these race/gender based efforts is another.  There is some but not a ton mentioned about hiring based on diversity, so we don't know how far the org would take things.

What we have found is that the National Post article kinda sucks because it leaves out these very important facts and just goes on a rant.  They aren't entirely 100% wrong but they also aren't upfront with all the info.

I'd honestly have to read a lot more of what's on the research board's website and guides to really know whats going on here.  This will take work I don't feel like doing at this very moment, but may in the near future.

Quote
So with this issue you have found I'm open to the idea that it could lead to poor hiring practices.

Well again, the whole thing with me is not hiring the best person for the job who has the most merit.  There's some language they point to about hiring diverse people for the sake of diversity and equality of outcome based on disparities with the general population, which is the opposite of merit.  However, much of what the org site says is mostly harmless and well-intentioned and a bunch of it I even agree with.  But again I have to read more of it.

Quote
What's mind-boggling is that you continue to stand against something that hasn't been shown to be happening and proudly and defiantly so.

Not sure yet what's going on in this specific case, however it's very clear that this gov does have efforts to hire based on identity rather than only on merit, and to institute quotas sometimes too.  I have no doubt the first and 2nd GG's were chosen by the Trudeau gov because of their gender (and in the 2nd case, her ethnicity), we also know Trudeau has maintained a 50% female quota for his Cabinet selection and it's not based purely on merit quite obviously.  We also know because he said so that Biden wanted to select a VP candidate that was a black woman and that' exactly what he did with Kamala.  So these things obviously happen.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #431 on: November 27, 2021, 08:39:32 pm »

The prof's answer seemed fair and he pointed out all the diversity in projects he has done, however he didn't explain anything he was proactively doing other than hiring over merit.  Nothing wrong with that in general, but also not what the org was looking for.  The org was fair in that they gave the prof a chance to expand on the EDI section and resubmit the application.

I agree so far.

Quote
What we don't quite know is what the prof would have to say in order to please the org enough the get approved.    Accommodating disabled students etc would be one thing, but doing all these race/gender based efforts is another.  There is some but not a ton mentioned about hiring based on diversity, so we don't know how far the org would take things.

NSERC said it in their response "training plan" or somesuch.  My inside source said that's what is expected, a serious attempt to address the question. 

I agree that "we" don't quite know but I submit that professors do know, and that he would have known since he says he was rejected before presumably with the same message.

I will quote the NSERC response from twitter so anyone reading this doesn't even have to click the link:

The [EDI] considerations in this application were deemed insufficient.  The training plan did not adequate describe specific concrete practices that will be put in place to ensure EDI is intentionally and actively supported in the training plan.  Vague or generic statements are not sufficient and therefore the application is being rejected. 

Quote
What we have found is that the National Post article kinda sucks because it leaves out these very important facts and just goes on a rant.  They aren't entirely 100% wrong but they also aren't upfront with all the info.

Right.

Quote
I'd honestly have to read a lot more of what's on the research board's website and guides to really know whats going on here.  This will take work I don't feel like doing at this very moment, but may in the near future.

Fair enough.  At a minimum, I feel like we can leave this as 'inconclusive'.   

Quote
Well again, the whole thing with me is not hiring the best person for the job who has the most merit.  There's some language they point to about hiring diverse people for the sake of diversity and equality of outcome based on disparities with the general population, which is the opposite of merit.  However, much of what the org site says is mostly harmless and well-intentioned and a bunch of it I even agree with.  But again I have to read more of it.

OK.

Quote
Not sure yet what's going on in this specific case, however it's very clear that this gov does have efforts to hire based on identity rather than only on merit, and to institute quotas sometimes too.  I have no doubt the first and 2nd GG's were chosen by the Trudeau gov because of their gender (and in the 2nd case, her ethnicity), we also know Trudeau has maintained a 50% female quota for his Cabinet selection and it's not based purely on merit quite obviously.  We also know because he said so that Biden wanted to select a VP candidate that was a black woman and that' exactly what he did with Kamala.  So these things obviously happen.

I don't dispute that the Liberals have done this or the Democrats.  Is Harris unqualified ?  Are the cabinet ministers - Jody Wilson-Reybould, Caroyn Bennett incompetent ?  Do they have a deep bench to draw from ?

I will say that merit is primary but in politics, where they don't like electing fat people, ugly people or bald people... well superficiality rules...  Not a good thing.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10191
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #432 on: November 27, 2021, 09:58:05 pm »
Fair enough.  At a minimum, I feel like we can leave this as 'inconclusive'.

Yes I think so.  We don't have enough info.  We don't know about this "training plan".  It may have been another question ie: "How will you develop a training plan for hires that furthers EDI principles?".

Quote
I don't dispute that the Liberals have done this or the Democrats.  Is Harris unqualified ?  Are the cabinet ministers - Jody Wilson-Reybould, Caroyn Bennett incompetent ?  Do they have a deep bench to draw from ?

I don't think it matters whether they reach some minimum threshold of competence to be considered "qualified".  What matters is that they are chosen based on tokenism rather than purely on merit.  Purely on merit means that they were the best qualified person for the job.  Harris was the most qualified black woman for the job, and all white men (and anyone else not a black female) were disqualified from the job purely because of their gender and the colour of their skin and that's simply a fact.  A lot of the choice was probably influenced by the George Floyd situation that was happening at the time, just like our GG pick was influenced by the residential school controversy at the time, so they are token choices so they can look like they care without actually having to address any systemic root issues that usually costs a lot of money.

This would be like saying that despite white people being chosen for jobs over black people because of the colour of their skin that's still ok because none of the white people were unqualified.  We're very clearly talking about discrimination in these situations, this is also an indisputable fact, it's just a matter of whether someone agrees with it or not because the ends justify the means.

My position remains that if you look at someone and hire someone because of their race or gender etc, you're a racist and/or a sexist and you're not treating people like equal individuals you're putting people who belong to different groups into a hierarchy where some are to be treated better than others, which is exactly what racism/sexism and discrimination is.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 10:01:12 pm by Nipples Von Graham »
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12477
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #433 on: November 28, 2021, 07:38:53 am »
1. We don't know about this "training plan".  It may have been another question ie: "How will you develop a training plan for hires that furthers EDI principles?".

2 I don't think it matters whether they reach some minimum threshold of competence to be considered "qualified".  What matters is that they are chosen based on tokenism rather than purely on merit.  Purely on merit means that they were the best qualified person for the job.

This would be like saying that despite white people being chosen for jobs over black people because of the colour of their skin that's still ok because none of the white people were unqualified. 

3. My position remains that if you look at someone and hire someone because of their race or gender etc, you're a racist and/or a sexist and you're not treating people like equal individuals you're putting people who belong to different groups into a hierarchy where some are to be treated better than others, which is exactly what racism/sexism and discrimination is.

1. Well - given what we have learned so far, I don't see this touching on hiring people who DON'T have merit.  My insider told me this Friday: "We're all men, taking the training and agreeing to the principles but yet still hiring all men all the time."  I think the point is that women would get a fair shake if they ever applied.

2. This is politics.  White men have a HUGE advantage in getting elected, just based on their gender and race.  It can't be denied.  The voter, as much as they are expected to use intelligence in making their choice, really only select candidates in the same way they select grocery store items based on the package.  If 'Black Woman' is the flavour of the month, then that's in the mix.  You really want to stop at this point and say race and gender shouldn't matter ?  Quit while you're ahead, I say.  Do you think the Republicans would pick a black woman ?  Do you think it's ok for that bias to go one way only ? 

Of course it's ALL bad.  So, great then - take it out of politics.  How are you going to do that exactly ?

3.  There's no way to enforce a rule that the 'best person' be picked because:

a. You are comparing apples and oranges and a set of different capabilities that are all different
b. Electability is the most important part of being the best person

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #434 on: November 28, 2021, 09:11:27 am »
Here's the progress report:

none.  🥴
Thanks for checking in. Is there anything I can do to better support your progress? lol
Optimistic Optimistic x 1 View List