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Author Topic: Woke Culture  (Read 30690 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2021, 09:53:38 am »
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 21, 2021, 12:52:18 pm
Imposing culture on another country by force is imperialism.  Interfering with the sovereignty of another country is against the very basis of international law.  We might care about people's rights in Afghanistan but it's none of our business, but people have a hard time minding their own.
Thanks for offering your opinion.
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Refusing vaccines is a completely separate topic because that happens in our own country so we have a say.
They're both about the scope of our liberalism IMO.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2021, 03:55:47 pm »
Quote from: MH on August 22, 2021, 09:53:38 am
They're both about the scope of our liberalism IMO.

Well no, medieval hellholes aren't airborne.  Besides, nobody is forcing anti-vaxxers to do anything.  People can make their own choices about their bodies.
 Similarly, companies can choose to deny them employment and their acquaintances can choose to disassociate with them.


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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2021, 04:55:24 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on August 22, 2021, 03:55:47 pm
Well no, medieval hellholes aren't airborne.  Besides, nobody is forcing anti-vaxxers to do anything.  People can make their own choices about their bodies.
 Similarly, companies can choose to deny them employment and their acquaintances can choose to disassociate with them.
You are finding reasons why the topics are different, but again they're both about tolerance and rights.

When is force necessary against liberalism or illiberalism?

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2021, 05:09:23 pm »
Quote from: MH on August 22, 2021, 04:55:24 pm
You are finding reasons why the topics are different, but again they're both about tolerance and rights.

When is force necessary against liberalism or illiberalism?

But again... nobody is forcing vaccines.  That's what makes the comparison irrelevant.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2021, 05:47:39 pm »
Quote from: MH on August 22, 2021, 09:53:38 am
Thanks for offering your opinion.They're both about the scope of our liberalism IMO.

Who is included in "our liberalism" though?

There's no liberalism when a government is installed by force of a foreign invader without the people's consent and self- determination. 
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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2021, 06:08:38 pm »
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 22, 2021, 05:47:39 pm
Who is included in "our liberalism" though?

There's no liberalism when a government is installed by force of a foreign invader without the people's consent and self- determination.

Of course, any government installed by any means other than free and fair elections is installed without the people's consent and self- determination.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2021, 06:33:44 pm »
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 22, 2021, 05:47:39 pm
Who is included in "our liberalism" though?

There's no liberalism when a government is installed by force of a foreign invader without the people's consent and self- determination.

I guess that's the paradox - we are forcing freedom on others as we do from time to time.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2021, 08:26:10 pm »
Quote from: MH on August 22, 2021, 06:33:44 pm
I guess that's the paradox - we are forcing freedom on others as we do from time to time.

Yes and its no coincidence that freedom is good for our business and nationalization or other governments controlling things is not.  Communism was primarily a threat to our economies and not to our sensibilities.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2021, 08:30:06 pm »
Quote from: bcsapper on August 22, 2021, 06:08:38 pm
Of course, any government installed by any means other than free and fair elections is installed without the people's consent and self- determination.

True in a sense but some people genuinely support their dictatorships, and in a civil war who are we to sway the battle and decide the victor?
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2021, 08:59:57 pm »
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 22, 2021, 08:26:10 pm
Yes and its no coincidence that freedom is good for our business and nationalization or other governments controlling things is not.  Communism was primarily a threat to our economies and not to our sensibilities.

Well, the economic part adds a dimension that makes things harder to understand still.  We have been in business with China for decades but Cuba is off limits, etc.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #100 on: August 23, 2021, 10:07:51 am »
Quote from: MH on August 22, 2021, 08:59:57 pm
Well, the economic part adds a dimension that makes things harder to understand still.  We have been in business with China for decades but Cuba is off limits, etc.
But not for so.e overarching economic principle. It's only off limits to benefit the Republican Party. As in Afghanistan Americas partners are simply there to provide a moral shine.  The US invested 2 trillion on the project over 20 years. Britain by contrast only spent some 80 billion. Peanuts in other words. One opinion I heard on this pointed out that if Britain was a shareholder in a financial investment it wouldn't even rate a seat on the board of directors.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #101 on: August 23, 2021, 02:19:54 pm »
Quote from: MH on August 22, 2021, 04:55:24 pm
You are finding reasons why the topics are different, but again they're both about tolerance and rights.

When is force necessary against liberalism or illiberalism?

Is forcing a western concept like liberalism on a non-western country liberalism or illiberalism?

Is requiring people to be injected with medical fluid illiberalism for the targets, or liberalism for those around them?

Is it my body my choice when your choice kills a baby, but not my body my choice when your choice can potentially kill or harm others via spreading of disease?

If only women, black people, and indigenous could get COVID would we be forcing them to get vaccines?
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #102 on: August 23, 2021, 02:23:54 pm »
Quote from: eyeball on August 23, 2021, 10:07:51 am
But not for so.e overarching economic principle. It's only off limits to benefit the Republican Party. As in Afghanistan Americas partners are simply there to provide a moral shine.  The US invested 2 trillion on the project over 20 years. Britain by contrast only spent some 80 billion. Peanuts in other words. One opinion I heard on this pointed out that if Britain was a shareholder in a financial investment it wouldn't even rate a seat on the board of directors.

I wonder where Afghanistan would be if we took that 2 trillion and built schools, colleges, hospitals, and other infrastructure for them?

How much would they like the Taliban vs the West then?
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #103 on: August 23, 2021, 02:39:38 pm »
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 23, 2021, 02:23:54 pm
I wonder where Afghanistan would be if we took that 2 trillion and built schools, colleges, hospitals, and other infrastructure for them?

How much would they like the Taliban vs the West then?
Probably a lot more than they do now. The question is how much would our own population like the West.  Look how much resistance and fighting there can be to building schools, colleges, hospitals etc right here at home. The US was advised to invest money in this type of public infrastructure in Afghanistan following the defeat of the Soviet invasion but America basically washed their hands of the place. I guess US taxpayers were happier investing their money on their next military adventure.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2021, 02:53:10 pm »
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 23, 2021, 02:19:54 pm
Is forcing a western concept like liberalism on a non-western country liberalism or illiberalism?

Yes, that's the question.  There is always illiberalism in the end - as you have police to enforce authority no matter what.  But where is the line ?

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Is requiring people to be injected with medical fluid illiberalism for the targets, or liberalism for those around them?

Right.  Yes.

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Is it my body my choice when your choice kills a baby, but not my body my choice when your choice can potentially kill or harm others via spreading of disease?

Exactly.  Another good one.

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If only women, black people, and indigenous could get COVID would we be forcing them to get vaccines?

Who knows ? 

Jeez, yeah.
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