Author Topic: Woke Culture  (Read 30267 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #405 on: November 26, 2021, 03:48:57 pm »
Your reasoning is deficient.  Nowhere does it say that NSERC has said he was denied because of refusing to hire on merit. 

He implies that, and in your bloodlust for Cancel Culture bullshit, you bought it.

THIS is what I mean when I say 2% of these things have merit.  This makes the news in a National newspaper and people like you parrot it .... "Cancel Culture Cancel Culture".

I'm trying to listen to you, as I do.  I'm trying to give consideration to your point of view, because you are a fellow poster on here.

But I have to say Black Dog's position strikes me as more and more accurate: this is becoming made-up hysteria by the angertainment industry.  And - no - I'm not "afraid" of the PC police.  I'm looking at facts, which you are not doing.

All I have to work with here is what's in the article.  Based on the article, most of what I said still seems true.  Unless the National Post and this researcher is lying to us, it seems pretty obvious why he was denied the grant.  He filled out the form, they didn't like his answer because it wasn't "woke" enough about DIE (diversity, inclusion, equity lol).  Here's the article again:

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Patanjali Kambhampati, a professor in the chemistry department at Montreal’s McGill University, believes the death knell for the latest grant was a line in the application form where he was asked about hiring staff based on diversity and inclusion considerations. He says his mistake was maintaining that he would hire on merit any research assistant who was qualified, regardless of their identity..  “We will hire the most qualified people based upon their skills and mutual interests,” Kambhampati wrote on the application.  “I’ve had two people say that was the kiss of death,” said Kambhampati.

I have no idea how you would make sure to have "diversity" or "equity" in hiring staff on a project without giving preferential treatment to minorities.  This is exactly what the Liberal government does in other hiring practices.  Cabinet is an example.  It didn't choose members simply on merit, it has a 50% female quota.  I once attended a Justin Trudeau campaign stop and 100% of his security detail are POC.  That wasn't a coincidence, I'm not an idiot.

If you can point out how the article was inaccurate then i'm all ears.  Your source says it was, but why should I believe 2nd-hand info from your source over the article?

You said "There's nothing in the article that says the NSERC grant won't let you hire on merit.".  In the article it said there was "a line in the application form where he was asked about hiring staff based on diversity and inclusion considerations".  If diversity/inclusion is part of your hiring decisions, then you aren't only hiring on merit, you're also hiring with skin colour/gender etc in mind, which have nothing to do with merit  If 5 people need to be hired and 20 people of all backgrounds apply, and the 5 most qualified candidates happen to be white and male, I can only assume that this would be deemed insufficient by the NSERC grant folks because its not "diverse and inclusive" enough.  Like MH what exactly do you think the point of the question from NSERC was?  This is a government that had a Canada Summer Jobs program that had an attestation on the grant application for organizations not to have any mandates/efforts to undermine abortion rights.  This government has a history of requiring compliance for its woke social engineering agenda.

The gov said the grant was denied because "the Equity, Diversity and Inclusion considerations in the application were deemed insufficient.”  So what are we to conclude from this???  It seems pretty obvious.  Maybe i'm wrong but the evidence seems to point to me and the article being correct.  I'm not the one "being duped", I am not naive.

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Blah blah blah... you continue to double down and are discrediting yourself more and more in my mind.  I already talked about social structures and how they influence perceptions and so on... in your quest for "facts and logic" you ignored what I said and labelled me as afraid.

IN our country, unfortunately, you count as a reasonably informed voter and yet you are being duped and continue to ignore it.  You're an argument against democracy.

I didn't ignore what you said, I just don't agree with what you said because it doesn't jive.  It's possible I don't quite understand some of your points and there's miscommunication, I dunno, but it still doesn't make sense.  I'm sorry you were offended by what I said because I like you personally and we're forum chaps but I will not apologize for it as I believe it, as my subjective opinion/thesis, to be true., based on a large amount of evidence (thousands of forum posts over years).
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Offline The Cynic

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #406 on: November 26, 2021, 03:49:52 pm »
He did that.  He knew that that was incomplete - and a non-answer that would guarantee he wouldn't make it past the form check.

His EDI statement.

The academic team consists of the PK group. Our group is highly diverse, being populated by men and women from many countries and religions and cultures. Our group is also highly diverse in terms of intellectual background and research areas of expertise. Our group has a long history of inclusion of women into ultrafast laser science, which has some of the lowest populations of women in STEM. The corporate partners are also highly diverse, spanning several countries of origin with a number of women in STEM in key roles for Photon Etc and few-cycle. We will recruit a diverse array of students and HQP during the course of this project. We will hire the most qualified people based upon their skills and mutual interests, with outreach activities to help. We will advertise in Women in STEM organizations. We will recruit via word of mouth, noting my recent female PhD is now on a tenure track position in Physics in Germany. She is now one of the leading young women in physics in the globe, who was trained and mentored in my system.

https://twitter.com/DorianAbbot/status/1461447368491028482
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Offline The Cynic

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #407 on: November 26, 2021, 03:51:29 pm »
Yeah except we don't live in a fantasy world where meritocracy exists. Anyone who has ever had a job anywhere knows this instinctively to be true.

Maybe merit doesn't exist in your world. I suppose that's hardly a surprise since you don't appear to have any. But it certainly has in mine.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #408 on: November 26, 2021, 03:53:39 pm »
Suggests in your mind.  People are expected to answer the questions seriously not just write a sentence about "merit".

Right because the people in gov who give the grant want researchers to have some hiring criteria based on diversity/inclusion.  Skin colour, gender etc is not merit.  Prof wanted to hire on merit, thus was denied.

Of course he was trying to make a point:  the requirements for the grant are discriminatory and they are unjust because they don't align with the concept of the basic equality of treatment of people regardless of skin colour, gender etc.
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Offline The Cynic

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #409 on: November 26, 2021, 03:53:57 pm »
Prove there are quotas.

Anyone who denies there are quotas has sh1t in his ears as well as his head, or is just full of sh1t overall. Everyone knows the pressure in government organizations to hire and promote POC. It's constantly brought up in discussions about hiring. My girlfriend is an EX2 and she's under constant pressure to hire minorities and women - any minority or woman.

Offline The Cynic

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #410 on: November 26, 2021, 04:00:29 pm »
Your reasoning is deficient.  Nowhere does it say that NSERC has said he was denied because of refusing to hire on merit. 

Did you even read the story, you overbearing snot?

But his application for a $450,000 grant this month from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC) was turned down because, the council said, “the Equity, Diversity and Inclusion considerations in the application were deemed insufficient.”

His grant application a year ago to the federally funded National Frontiers in Research Fund  — whose object is “to support world-leading interdisciplinary, international, high-risk/high-reward, transformative and rapid-response Canadian research” — was also turned down on similar grounds
.[/quote]

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Blah blah blah... you continue to double down and are discrediting yourself more and more in my mind.  I already talked about social structures and how they influence perceptions and so on... in your quest for "facts and logic" you ignored what I said and labelled me as afraid.

LOL. There it is again. This sense of disbelief that YOU have pronounced upon a subject and yet someone still seems to disagree! Whatever can be wrong with them! They're just not as enlightened and thoughtful and insightful as you are, standing up on that pedestal you built for yourself. If only you could find a way to educate them so they thought exactly as you do!

I've come across woker posters but never one with such a massive sense of superiority as you display. Do you constantly bang into trees and poles because you walk around with your nose so high in the air you can't see in front of you?


« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 04:04:42 pm by The Cynic »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #411 on: November 26, 2021, 04:09:34 pm »
We people? I'm not talking about banning or burning books. I'm talking about even-handed teaching rather than the vicious groupthink you and your cadre of extremists insist on subjecting children to. It's laughable that Trump and his people are going to get back in control in the US next year because the Democrats have been catering to racists and race-baiters like you and the rest of the progressive mob. He's an incompetent, corrupt fool, but as far as most middle-class people are concerned he doesn't hate them or want to subject them to 're-education' like you extremists. Your insistence on indoctrinating children and college kids, and your hatred for police and border controls is going to carry Trump right back into the White House.

Yeah you people: you know, people so enthralled to propaganda and so fearful of difference that they would happily throw their lot in with fascists and destroy democracy itself than have to learn a more complex version of history than "'merica good". you can pretend to be anti-Trump all you want but at the end of the day you're just as much of a piece of **** as any **** MAGA believer because you're motivated wholly by anxiety over losing what you see as your rightful place atop the racial hierarchy.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #412 on: November 26, 2021, 04:10:19 pm »
Maybe merit doesn't exist in your world. I suppose that's hardly a surprise since you don't appear to have any. But it certainly has in mine.

Evidently reading comprehension doesn't exist in your world because I didn't say merit doesn't exist, you moron.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #413 on: November 26, 2021, 04:11:40 pm »
Anyone who denies there are quotas has sh1t in his ears as well as his head, or is just full of sh1t overall. Everyone knows the pressure in government organizations to hire and promote POC. It's constantly brought up in discussions about hiring. My girlfriend is an EX2 and she's under constant pressure to hire minorities and women - any minority or woman.

And is she, like you, too stupid to know the difference between "quotas" and simply hiring more qualified minorities? If she's dating you she must be dumb as a post.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #414 on: November 26, 2021, 04:14:17 pm »
Did you even read the story, you overbearing snot?

But his application for a $450,000 grant this month from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC) was turned down because, the council said, “the Equity, Diversity and Inclusion considerations in the application were deemed insufficient.”

His grant application a year ago to the federally funded National Frontiers in Research Fund  — whose object is “to support world-leading interdisciplinary, international, high-risk/high-reward, transformative and rapid-response Canadian research” — was also turned down on similar grounds
.

LOL. There it is again. This sense of disbelief that YOU have pronounced upon a subject and yet someone still seems to disagree! Whatever can be wrong with them! They're just not as enlightened and thoughtful and insightful as you are, standing up on that pedestal you built for yourself. If only you could find a way to educate them so they thought exactly as you do!

I've come across woker posters but never one with such a massive sense of superiority as you display. Do you constantly bang into trees and poles because you walk around with your nose so high in the air you can't see in front of you?

Your insecurity constantly shines through. Maybe people think you're stupid not because they think they are superior, but because you're actually stupid as hell and it's obvious to all and sundry.
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Offline The Cynic

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #415 on: November 26, 2021, 04:24:13 pm »
Yeah you people: you know, people so enthralled to propaganda and so fearful of difference that they would happily throw their lot in with fascists and destroy democracy itself than have to learn a more complex version of history than "'merica good". you can pretend to be anti-Trump all you want but at the end of the day you're just as much of a piece of **** as any **** MAGA believer because you're motivated wholly by anxiety over losing what you see as your rightful place atop the racial hierarchy.

Some people might think it's either the far right or the far left. And while neither group is very good the far left are the ones who hate them and want to pull them down and destroy their country, culture, capitalism and everything else they believe in.

Think about that, sh1thead. So many people thinking you're so awful they'd prefer Donald Trump and his friends.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #416 on: November 26, 2021, 04:35:05 pm »
Some people might think it's either the far right or the far left. And while neither group is very good the far left are the ones who hate them and want to pull them down and destroy their country, culture, capitalism and everything else they believe in.

Think about that, sh1thead. So many people thinking you're so awful they'd prefer Donald Trump and his friends.

Stop pretending that mob of ignorant barbarians you call "some people" who would turn to fascism to fight some powerless or imaginary enemies doesn't include you.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 07:38:48 pm by Black Dog »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #417 on: November 26, 2021, 04:58:27 pm »
 I explained how it works.  Read the article again ... "he believes".  Meanwhile he admits he already had a submission rejected: why ?  Because he doesn't treat the question seriously.  Why doesn't he tell us what the question is ?  It's a free form question asking what EDI considerations are in place with the institution/department.   

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I have no idea how you would make sure to have "diversity" or "equity" in hiring staff on a project without giving preferential treatment to minorities.

Well, lucky for you I explained that in my post that you didn't read.   

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If you can point out how the article was inaccurate then i'm all ears.  Your source says it was, but why should I believe 2nd-hand info from your source over the article?

Why believe anything at all that challenges your worldview right ?  Read my post (for the first time) and see if what he says about the process gibes with the lack of detail, and the quote of the professor "believing" that he needs to submit to quotas. 

As I said, I suspect he's grandstanding.  Check out the lack of detail in the article about the submission requirements, versus what I reported.  Don't you find that telling ?  And why didn't they wait for a response from NSERC ?  Is this breaking news ? 

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   In the article it said there was "a line in the application form where he was asked about hiring staff based on diversity and inclusion considerations".

Here's the guideline - why don't YOU do some research for a change ?

https://www.chairs-chaires.gc.ca/program-programme/equity-equite/best_practices-pratiques_examplaires-eng.aspx

Review it and let's see where it talks about diversity over merit.  I haven't read it, so I'm open to the idea of you finding something objectionable.  Then we can talk about why the NP article exists.   
 
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #418 on: November 26, 2021, 08:18:02 pm »
I must be in some sort of dinosaur industry. At my job I'm still referred to as the Master and everyone has to do as I say. Even says so on my official certificate. Even says everyone has to do as I say on their official certificates too.

Nowadays women are Masters too. I recall when the old timers back in the day would refuse to even let women tie up their boat. Woke vessel owners today though have noted women are a lot gentler on engines, boats and fuel invoices.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 08:19:48 pm by eyeball »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #419 on: November 26, 2021, 09:01:48 pm »
I explained how it works.  Read the article again ... "he believes".  Meanwhile he admits he already had a submission rejected: why ?  Because he doesn't treat the question seriously.  Why doesn't he tell us what the question is ?  It's a free form question asking what EDI considerations are in place with the institution/department.

He fundamentally disagrees with the morality of the EDI agenda, and especially the part about increasing representation of certain groups through hiring decisions.  Because he would not submit to the woke EDI requirements he lost the grants.  Or he could have just rolled over and submitted to their EDI requirements even if he morally disagrees with them.

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Well, lucky for you I explained that in my post that you didn't read.   

I've read all of the posts you've made in response to my posts.

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Why believe anything at all that challenges your worldview right ?  Read my post (for the first time) and see if what he says about the process gibes with the lack of detail, and the quote of the professor "believing" that he needs to submit to quotas. 

As I said, I suspect he's grandstanding.  Check out the lack of detail in the article about the submission requirements, versus what I reported.  Don't you find that telling ?  And why didn't they wait for a response from NSERC ?  Is this breaking news
?

The prof never mentioned anything about quotas.  He said he hires on merit and not based on identity.  Here's from the best practices guide of EDI for the application:  https://www.chairs-chaires.gc.ca/program-programme/equity-equite/best_practices-pratiques_examplaires-eng.aspx#d

"Assess whether the pool of applicants is sufficiently diverse (the program’s equity target percentages that are principally based on the makeup of Canada’s population could be used as target percentages, i.e., 22% racialized minorities, 4.9% Indigenous Peoples, 50.9% women and 7.5% persons with disabilities). If the pool of applicants is not large or diverse enough, extend the application deadline, or review the job posting more critically for potential barriers and re-post it."

Why would this matter?  Why would applicants need to match the general population numbers?  This will NEVER exist if you leave people to their own devices even if racism is 100% eliminated or even if it never existed due to cultural and geographic differences...it won't happen unless you institute policies to artificially create equality of outcome.  It's nutty social engineering designed to create equality of outcome, which is straight out of the Marxism playbook of far-left politics except now in the social sphere and not income.

The Liberal government is filled with and led by socially far-left nutters that are using grant applications to ensure compliance of their social agenda and disincentivizing criticism of it by refusing grant money.

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Review it and let's see where it talks about diversity over merit.  I haven't read it, so I'm open to the idea of you finding something objectionable.  Then we can talk about why the NP article exists.

See above.  And here:

"Systematically collect disaggregated self-identification data at all levels of faculty using best practices. Monitor and analyze this data to identify any potential systemic barriers to advancement. Measure and report publicly on progress (e.g., set firm targets for the representation of the underrepresented groups and develop a strategy to achieve them)."

Part of EDI is what I agree with, that would be removing barriers for minority groups.  Re:  understanding people with different background or needs from your own or from what is usual.  ie:  Aboriginals may have different ways of communicating or understand nature.  So lack of cultural awareness can create unconscious bias.  Or ie: people with disabilities may have different working routines that you don't fully understand.  These are all valid to recognize

The other part is that which I and professor disagree with, which is hiring practices that ensure "proper" representation and diversity so it more closely matches the general population and making hiring decisions which are at least in part based on a person's identity.  Why the wokesters don't scream injustice because social workers, medical doctors, psychologists, and university grads in general are predominately women but some injustice must be occurring if most IT professionals are men is mind-boggling.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 09:06:00 pm by Nipples Von Graham »
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