Author Topic: Woke Culture  (Read 1099 times)

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #105 on: August 23, 2021, 05:10:32 pm »
Probably a lot more than they do now. The question is how much would our own population like the West.  Look how much resistance and fighting there can be to building schools, colleges, hospitals etc right here at home. The US was advised to invest money in this type of public infrastructure in Afghanistan following the defeat of the Soviet invasion but America basically washed their hands of the place. I guess US taxpayers were happier investing their money on their next military adventure.

Yeah there would be no way that Americans, or even Canadians, would go along with putting up all that money to help another country when many would argue we should spend it at home instead.  But when you make people fear terrorists then war is an easier sell.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #106 on: August 23, 2021, 09:56:53 pm »
Is forcing a western concept like liberalism on a non-western country liberalism or illiberalism?

Would you ever intervene in the case of genocide or humanitarian crises, or crimes against humanity?

Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #107 on: August 23, 2021, 11:32:29 pm »
Would you ever intervene in the case of genocide or humanitarian crises, or crimes against humanity?
I would. Heck, I'd probably make it a crime not to intervene.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2021, 01:08:04 am »
Would you ever intervene in the case of genocide or humanitarian crises, or crimes against humanity?

Yeah in terrible cases, like mass genocide.  I think the bar should be somewhat high for these things.

What I'm not interested in is messing with culture or economic policy or type of government.   Of course it's easier said than done when your enemy might be trying to do just that in a way that's not in your favor.  There's always some country trying to exert its power somewhere.  The idea that a country will just be left alone is pretty naive.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #109 on: September 02, 2021, 02:43:02 pm »
FROM THE ECONOMIST SEPT 4TH, NO BYLINE - I THINK IT'S EDITORIAL:

Something has gone very wrong with Western liberalism. At its heart classical liberalism believes human progress is brought about by debate and reform. The best way to navigate disruptive change in a divided world is through a universal commitment to individual dignity, open markets and limited government. Yet a resurgent China sneers at liberalism for being selfish, decadent and unstable. At home, populists on the right and left rage at liberalism for its supposed elitism and privilege.
 

Over the past 250 years classical liberalism has helped bring about unparalleled progress. It will not vanish in a puff of smoke. But it is undergoing a severe test, just as it did a century ago when the cancers of Bolshevism and fascism began to eat away at liberal Europe from within. It is time for liberals to understand what they are up against and to fight back.

Nowhere is the fight fiercer than in America, where this week the Supreme Court chose not to strike down a draconian and bizarre anti-abortion law. The most dangerous threat in liberalism’s spiritual home comes from the Trumpian right. Populists denigrate liberal edifices such as science and the rule of law as façades for a plot by the deep state against the people. They subordinate facts and reason to tribal emotion. The enduring falsehood that the presidential election in 2020 was stolen points to where such impulses lead. If people cannot settle their differences using debate and trusted institutions, they resort to force.

The attack from the left is harder to grasp, partly because in America “liberal” has come to include an illiberal left. We describe this week how a new style of politics has recently spread from elite university departments. As young graduates have taken jobs in the upmarket media and in politics, business and education, they have brought with them a horror of feeling “unsafe” and an agenda obsessed with a narrow vision of obtaining justice for oppressed identity groups. They have also brought along tactics to enforce ideological purity, by no-platforming their enemies and cancelling allies who have transgressed—with echoes of the confessional state that dominated Europe before classical liberalism took root at the end of the 18th century.

Superficially, the illiberal left and classical liberals like The Economist want many of the same things. Both believe that people should be able to flourish whatever their sexuality or race. They share a suspicion of authority and entrenched interests. They believe in the desirability of change.

However, classical liberals and illiberal progressives could hardly disagree more over how to bring these things about. For classical liberals, the precise direction of progress is unknowable. It must be spontaneous and from the bottom up—and it depends on the separation of powers, so that nobody nor any group is able to exert lasting control. By contrast the illiberal left put their own power at the centre of things, because they are sure real progress is possible only after they have first seen to it that racial, sexual and other hierarchies are dismantled.

This difference in method has profound implications. Classical liberals believe in setting fair initial conditions and letting events unfold through competition—by, say, eliminating corporate monopolies, opening up guilds, radically reforming taxation and making education accessible with vouchers. Progressives see laissez-faire as a pretence which powerful vested interests use to preserve the status quo. Instead, they believe in imposing “equity”—the outcomes that they deem just. For example, Ibram X. Kendi, a scholar-activist, asserts that any colour-blind policy, including the standardised testing of children, is racist if it ends up increasing average racial differentials, however enlightened the intentions behind it.

Mr Kendi is right to want an anti-racist policy that works. But his blunderbuss approach risks denying some disadvantaged children the help they need and others the chance to realise their talents. Individuals, not just groups, must be treated fairly for society to flourish. Besides, society has many goals. People worry about economic growth, welfare, crime, the environment and national security, and policies cannot be judged simply on whether they advance a particular group. Classical liberals use debate to hash out priorities and trade-offs in a pluralist society and then use elections to settle on a course. The illiberal left believe that the marketplace of ideas is rigged just like all the others. What masquerades as evidence and argument, they say, is really yet another assertion of raw power by the elite.

Progressives of the old school remain champions of free speech. But illiberal progressives think that equity requires the field to be tilted against those who are privileged and reactionary. That means restricting their freedom of speech, using a caste system of victimhood in which those on top must defer to those with a greater claim to restorative justice. It also involves making an example of supposed reactionaries, by punishing them when they say something that is taken to make someone who is less privileged feel unsafe. The results are calling-out, cancellation and no-platforming.

Milton Friedman once said that the “society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither”. He was right. Illiberal progressives think they have a blueprint for freeing oppressed groups. In reality theirs is a formula for the oppression of individuals—and, in that, it is not so very different from the plans of the populist right. In their different ways both extremes put power before process, ends before means and the interests of the group before the freedom of the individual.

Countries run by the strongmen whom populists admire, such as Hungary under Viktor Orban and Russia under Vladimir Putin, show that unchecked power is a bad foundation for good government. Utopias like Cuba and Venezuela show that ends do not justify means. And nowhere at all do individuals willingly conform to state-imposed racial and economic stereotypes.

When populists put partisanship before truth, they sabotage good government. When progressives divide people into competing castes, they turn the nation against itself. Both diminish institutions that resolve social conflict. Hence they often resort to coercion, however much they like to talk about justice.

If classical liberalism is so much better than the alternatives, why is it struggling around the world? One reason is that populists and progressives feed off each other pathologically. The hatred each camp feels for the other inflames its own supporters—to the benefit of both. Criticising your own tribe’s excesses seems like treachery. Under these conditions, liberal debate is starved of oxygen. Just look at Britain, where politics in the past few years was consumed by the rows between uncompromising Tory Brexiteers and the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn.

Aspects of liberalism go against the grain of human nature. It requires you to defend your opponents’ right to speak, even when you know they are wrong. You must be willing to question your deepest beliefs. Businesses must not be sheltered from the gales of creative destruction. Your loved ones must advance on merit alone, even if all your instincts are to bend the rules for them. You must accept the victory of your enemies at the ballot box, even if you think they will bring the country to ruin.

In short, it is hard work to be a genuine liberal. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, when their last ideological challenger seemed to crumble, arrogant elites lost touch with liberalism’s humility and self-doubt. They fell into the habit of believing they were always right. They engineered America’s meritocracy to favour people like them. After the financial crisis, they oversaw an economy that grew too slowly for people to feel prosperous. Far from treating white working-class critics with dignity, they sneered at their supposed lack of sophistication.

This complacency has let opponents blame lasting imperfections on liberalism—and, because of the treatment of race in America, to insist the whole country was rotten from the start. In the face of persistent inequality and racism, classical liberals can remind people that change takes time. But Washington is broken, China is storming ahead and people are restless.

A liberal lack of conviction
The ultimate complacency would be for classical liberals to underestimate the threat. Too many right-leaning liberals are inclined to choose a shameless marriage of convenience with populists. Too many left-leaning liberals focus on how they, too, want social justice. They comfort themselves with the thought that the most intolerant illiberalism belongs to a fringe. Don’t worry, they say, intolerance is part of the mechanism of change: by focusing on injustice, they shift the centre ground.

Yet it is precisely by countering the forces propelling people to the extremes that classical liberals prevent the extremes from strengthening. By applying liberal principles, they help solve society’s many problems without anyone resorting to coercion. Only liberals appreciate diversity in all its forms and understand how to make it a strength. Only they can deal fairly with everything from education to planning and foreign policy so as to release people’s creative energies. Classical liberals must rediscover their fighting spirit. They should take on the bullies and cancellers. Liberalism is still the best engine for equitable progress. Liberals must have the courage to say so. ■

This article appeared in the Leaders section of the print edition under the headline "The threat from the illiberal left"
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Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #110 on: September 02, 2021, 03:03:04 pm »
I don’t think the author is wrong, except in how big the problem is. 

I don’t think the illiberal left is as big of a problem as the right.  In fact, I think the views on the right about creating legislation to oppress women and minorities is a mainstream view on the right that has probably made it into their Supreme Court.  While the illiberal left remains a fringe movement that is more of a distraction than any sort of threat.

In Canada, both groups seem more on the fringes, with the crazy right holding much more sway in politics than the illiberal left do.  That makes the views on the right much more of an issue and a danger than the libtard left.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 03:07:26 pm by the_squid »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #111 on: September 02, 2021, 06:50:27 pm »
I don’t think the author is wrong, except in how big the problem is. 

I don’t think the illiberal left is as big of a problem as the right.  In fact, I think the views on the right about creating legislation to oppress women and minorities is a mainstream view on the right that has probably made it into their Supreme Court.  While the illiberal left remains a fringe movement that is more of a distraction than any sort of threat.

I think yeah the far right probably has more sway in government at least in North America, while the far left has more cultural influence, through mass media, education etc.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #112 on: September 03, 2021, 07:03:33 am »
1. I don’t think the author is wrong, except in how big the problem is. 

2. I don’t think the illiberal left is as big of a problem as the right.  In fact, I think the views on the right about creating legislation to oppress women and minorities is a mainstream view on the right that has probably made it into their Supreme Court.  While the illiberal left remains a fringe movement that is more of a distraction than any sort of threat.

3. In Canada, both groups seem more on the fringes, with the crazy right holding much more sway in politics than the illiberal left do. 

4. That makes the views on the right much more of an issue and a danger than the libtard left.
1. I agree.  The criticisms of liberalism are valid here but the examples of illiberalism are weak.
2. as the FRINGE right.  I agree.  Or in the US as the "right", ie. mainstream right, ie. Republicans
3. The crazy right just died a soft death when O'Toole told them to f** off by including a carbon tax.  They are livid.  We now should be free to pursue pragmatic policies, and this is very bad news for a Liberal party that holds a "centre" that might not exist if this trend continues.
4. Maybe I'm an optimist but I think they could be on the verge of a downward spiral.  And i don't want to imply the Liberals are done as there are some intriguing leaders lined up behind Justin who could come up with some big - and great - ideas.


My BIG THREE are: 

1. Political cohesion and unity
2. Climate
3. Economics

O'Toole (I won't vote for him) has made some relatively bold moves in these three areas.  Good news.


The world of business is changing recently to embrace win-win-win strategies and it's pretty remarkable.  If this makes for a culture (yes I said culture) change then it could be very good for all of us. 

And, taking it back, I do think that this means that the "identity" discussions should be parked - after all, how much more is there to fight about, how much of a priority are these questions ?