Author Topic: Woke Culture  (Read 1099 times)

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Offline MH

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Woke Culture
« on: August 05, 2021, 07:42:45 am »
First of all, I identify as 'woke'.  I also think that virtually everything I read about problems with woke culture is hysterically retarded (sic).  Cancel Culture is not a thing.  People need to check their privilege and above all: shut up.

That said, there are limits to how much a collective (nation, region, city, community, tribe) can legislate against misbehaviour.  This article represents the limit on two levels:

https://www.cp24.com/sports/11-charged-for-racist-abuse-of-england-players-who-missed-penalties-in-euro-2020-final-1.5535364

Quote
British police said Thursday they have made 11 arrests in connection with the online racial abuse of England soccer players following their team's loss to Italy in the final of the European Championship last month.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/5/uk-police-arrest-11-over-euro-2020-racist-abuse

Quote
Chief Constable Mark Roberts, National Police Chiefs’ Council Football Policing lead, said the investigation was proceeding “at pace”.

“There are people out there who believe they can hide behind a social media profile and get away with posting such abhorrent comments,” Roberts said.

“They need to think again – we have investigators proactively seeking out abusive comments in connection to the match and, if they meet a criminal threshold, those posting them will be arrested.”

Sorry - why doesn't a single article explain what that threshold IS ?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/15/four-arrested-over-online-racist-abuse-england-footballers

Quote
After England’s Euro 2020 final defeat to Italy on Sunday, three black players – Marcus Rashford, Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka – were targeted with racist abuse after missing penalties during the match.

Those detained included a 42-year-old man arrested on Wednesday by Cheshire constabulary on suspicion of displaying threatening, abusive or insulting written material that is likely to stir up racial hatred.

Greater Manchester police arrested a 37-year-old man on suspicion of an offence under the Malicious Communications Act, and West Mercia police detained a 50-year-old man on suspicion of inciting racial hatred.


That's as close as I can get to it.  It seems that what we are talking about is statements 'likely' to stir up racial hatred.  That is worded in a softer way than the Canadian hate law:

Quote
Section 319(1): Publicly inciting hatred—makes it an offence to communicate statements in a public place which incite hatred against an identifiable group, where it is likely to lead to a breach of the peace.

In other words the Canadian Law refers to break of peace, whereas the UK one refers to 'stirring up hatred'.  I have a big problem with the UK law as it is a step over the line, for me, in restricting offensive speech - which is Canadianally different than hate speech.  Unfortunately, the negative effect of our acceptance of multiculturalism and our rejection of racism also means that racists are vilified to the point where we don't give a toss about them.

But it's illiberal and it's a sign that our institutions are starting to get worn and dog-eared at the edges.  It doesn't matter so much now, in that the implications are that a few British soccer louts will be fined and who cares. But there are larger implications of where this is going.  I am afraid that when it comes to any coming proposals for large economic and wholesale legal change, we will not have the critical capacity to challenge or question them.

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Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2021, 08:31:02 am »

But there are larger implications of where this is going.  I am afraid that when it comes to any coming proposals for large economic and wholesale legal change, we will not have the critical capacity to challenge or question them.
Try questioning proposals to rein in the threat of short-term rental opeators or people that watch whales.

In the case of the former I hear it often repeated that we need to stop changing old community values. From  a former logger and fisherman's perspective the old social value of being vilified for your occupation before being forced out of it is alive and well.

Offline MH

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2021, 09:38:39 am »
1. Try questioning proposals to rein in the threat of short-term rental opeators or people that watch whales.

2. In the case of the former I hear it often repeated that we need to stop changing old community values. From  a former logger and fisherman's perspective the old social value of being vilified for your occupation before being forced out of it is alive and well.

1. Agreed that economic concerns are #1 but if the left is hyper-focused on identity politics, it serves the right on several ways
2. Keep being woke.  I am, but speak up when it gets stupid.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2021, 10:36:43 am »
In the UK it started with the Fabrice Muamba case, I think. 

He was a footballer who died on the pitch and was revived some 78 min later and lived, albeit out of the game.

Liam Stacy said some offensive things about him and was jailed for 56 days.

Although I remember reading them at the time, it's tough to find the actual tweets now. This article, from the Guardian no less, goes some way to explaining the nature of them.  (Remember it's the Guardian, so try and ignore the last couple of paragraphs)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/08/victoria-coren-liam-stacey-tweets

My personal view at the time was that the jail sentence was ridiculous.  It should not be illegal to be offensive.

The Unversity of Swansea had every right to kick him out, whether I agree with that or not.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 11:08:29 am by bcsapper »
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2021, 04:09:53 pm »
We don't have to flip out over it, but yes it seems wrong to do this.   The Guardian is a reasonable centre-left paper and I concur with this.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2021, 05:58:17 pm »
We don't have to flip out over it, but yes it seems wrong to do this.   The Guardian is a reasonable centre-left paper and I concur with this.

What do you mean by "flip out"? 

What would the appropriate response to this jail sentence for this offence be?  Getting 56 days in jail for some offensive tweets might well be as good a reason for flipping out as any.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2021, 06:16:57 pm »
1. What do you mean by "flip out"? 

2. What would the appropriate response to this jail sentence for this offence be?  Getting 56 days in jail for some offensive tweets might well be as good a reason for flipping out as any.
1. We don't need to panic, to react beyond what this is - a mistake that is merely remarkable.
2. I think we should flip out about poverty, disunity and climate ... in no order in particular.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2021, 06:51:01 pm »
1. We don't need to panic, to react beyond what this is - a mistake that is merely remarkable.
2. I think we should flip out about poverty, disunity and climate ... in no order in particular.

No panic.  We can agree on that. 

But someone went to jail for 56 days for expressing a disagreeable opinion.  And according to your OP, others may follow.  It's wrong to dismiss that as a remarkable mistake. 

 
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2021, 09:13:35 pm »
1. We don't need to panic....
Go tell it to people who are woke to public health orders that hearld the Red Dawn's arrival.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2021, 01:29:08 am »
I think this quote is what it all comes down to:

Quote
Chief Constable Mark Roberts, National Police Chiefs’ Council Football Policing lead, said the investigation was proceeding “at pace”.

“There are people out there who believe they can hide behind a social media profile and get away with posting such abhorrent comments,” Roberts said.

“They need to think again – we have investigators proactively seeking out abusive comments in connection to the match and, if they meet a criminal threshold, those posting them will be arrested.”

It's similar to kimmy's post on the 'progressive' thread where she felt twitter users abuse posters who don't conform with progressive ideals.  I argued there and I will argue now, that social media has made us rude because we say and do things we would never do in person. 

We (myself included) go anonymous so that we don't have to worry about employers or neighbours seeing our posts but I think a lot of people are taking the anonymity too far.  The article states "207 criminal social media posts identified" so I'm assuming the posts went beyond the typical n-word slur.

Interestingly, the points made by both kimmy and I on that thread turned out to be true.  I argued that abusive social media posters come in every stripe and not just 'progressives'.  But I also see Kimmy's point in that nobody ever got charged for threatening JK Rowling's life so I concede on the double standard.

For what it's worth, I don't think the solution is say wokism is gone too far.  If anything, people threatening JK Rowling's life should ALSO be investigated (instead of racist abuse being shrugged off). 

There certainly is a line that should not be crossed when it comes to freedom of speech.

Offline MH

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2021, 06:12:57 am »
No panic.  We can agree on that. 
  It's wrong to dismiss that as a remarkable mistake.

Your complaint should be a thank-you.  I'm a liberal saying that there are limits to woken attitudes.  Instead you want me to go farther.

I have stated that there are worse things, that's all.

Offline MH

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2021, 06:18:12 am »
Go tell it to people who are woke to public health orders that hearld the Red Dawn's arrival.

Yep, read my first two sentences in the OP.  I'm speaking to left of centre people who aren't sure if they should ever say anything.

You can say things.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2021, 08:10:08 am »
Your complaint should be a thank-you.  I'm a liberal saying that there are limits to woken attitudes.  Instead you want me to go farther.

I have stated that there are worse things, that's all.

It's not a complaint, it's an observation.  The limits are in the eye of the beholder.

There are always worse things.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2021, 09:33:27 am »
It's not a complaint, it's an observation.  The limits are in the eye of the beholder.

There are always worse things.

Not if you are Bill Maher.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2021, 08:39:38 pm »
Not if you are Bill Maher.

I'm not Bill Maher.  My mother had me tested.
Time for bed said Zebedee...
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