Author Topic: Why should abortion be allowed?  (Read 1628 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2018, 01:09:59 pm »
Well I'm glad you've thought a lot about the matter.  Not that a pro-choice person hasn't, but I hadn't fully heard all the arguments when i was pro-choice, and I'm sure I still haven't, hence this thread.  Hopefully I can share some of the arguments I've learned with others who may not have heard them.  It's amazing what can be learned by just listening with an open mind.

The common argument that early life is just "a bundle of cells" is ridiculous.  You and I are just a bundle of cells too I guess.  A bundle of cells would be more like me scraping some dead skin off the inside of my cheek and spitting it onto a microscope lens.

I agree with the better education aspect because it really worked for me in making sure I tried to prevent an unwanted pregnancy but as I just said in my previous post, there are circumstances where I would get an abortion too. 

We all have varying levels of what's an acceptable reason, but at the end of the day, I shouldn't judge other people's reasons any more than I feel people should judge mine.

Even though philosophically I get that, abortions based on gender really make me sad.  More for humanity though than for the fetus.

Offline Goddess

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2018, 02:06:10 pm »
abortions based on gender really make me sad.  More for humanity though than for the fetus.

Me too.  Aborting because of gender takes it to a whole 'nother level for me.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2018, 02:27:01 pm »
I think you (Cybercoma in reply 35) may be on to something.
Equating abortion to genocide and mass killings then claiming pregnant woman are irresponsibly choosing to abort indicates that his position - like mine - is not open for rational debate.

Firstly, you're the person who "liked" cyber's original profanity-laced insult to me.  That's been noted, thanks for the great contribution to this discussion!  I know this topic gets very emotionally charged, but that's uncalled for.

2ndly, use logic to convince me how the killing of many millions of innocent human lives is not mass murder, or not a type of unborn-baby genocide.  Here's your logic from a previous reply that i hadn't had a chance to respond to, since it's basically me here vs everyone else:

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First off, abortion is not killing - as in murder.  The fetus, or baby if you find that a more preferable term, has no existence as an individual separate from the mother. it is entirely 100% dependant upon the mother for all sustenance. It can't even leave or wander away from its mother. It has no known thought process or desires or wishes or wants. not even a survival instinct. There is nothing about the baby to suggest that it is a separate human entity from mom.

It has a heartbeat, a brain, spinal cord, legs, arms etc.  All of it starts to appear and grow within the 1st trimester.  A common strategy to argue pro-choice is to dehumanize the growing human, and I did this for a long time too.  If we can convince ourselves that this growing being isn't fully human, it makes it morally digestible for us to be able to end its life.  The horrific dark reality to this is that this is exactly the same tactic that racists used to legitimize slavery of blacks, and the exact same tactic that Nazis used to enslave & commit mass murder against the Jews.  If they are dehumanized, seen as less than human, we have a moral loophole to enslave & murder these people, en masse.  Think about that for a minute.

And yes here you have this growing little human life 100% completely dependent on the mother.  A common pro-choice argument is to say that the baby is using the mother's body as its slave, it's holding her hostage to survive. This is argument is an abomination.  If anything, it's the mother who is keeping the baby as its slave.  The mother is the one whose decisions & actions led to the creation of the baby & it had no choice, and now this baby's life is 100% dependent on the mother.  The mother was 100% aware her actions could lead to pregnancy if proper precautions were not taken.  Here's a very bold comparison that may offend you and others, but think about it for a minute: mothers who choose abortion are the slave owners, the baby is the slave, the womb is the concentration camp, the abortion clinic is the gas chamber, the doctor is the executioner (consensually following orders), Trudeau is the dictator (do and think as I say, there is no debate), the laws are the laws, the people who support or follow along are just people all the same.  Yeah that comparison might seem pretty crazy at first, but think about it.  Just under a million babies aborted in the USA every year, the vast majority of those would be walking & talking right now.  About 230 induced abortions per 1000 live births in USA every year.  That's a lot!  So, is it so crazy to call it a kind of genocide?  Mass murder?  Are the people who oppose abortion evil bible-thumpers who just want to "control women's bodies", or are many of these people (especially in US) well-meaning Christians who value life and the responsibility of having sex, and who didn't grow up in a culture where you f*cked anyone you wanted whenever you wanted before marriage.  I'm not religious btw.

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The pregnancy could very well be against her will. She may have wanted the sexual congress but not want the pregnancy that resulted. Where do you get off deciding that if she engages in sexual intercourse she must want to be pregnant? That is something that you cannot possibly know or even safely assume.  She could very well have taken proper precautions. Even if she didn't take precautions niether your moral values or anyone else moral values get to trump her moral values regarding what she does with her own body. If she doesn't wish to be pregnant or remain pregnant you got no ground to impose your morality on her.
  The baby has never had any choice about wether it lives or dies. It doesn't even choose to exist. Biology makes that choice, not that biology actually chooses anything.  The baby is not a separate entity from the mother until birth.
 And , yes its a selfish argument. It has to be because it only concerns the pregnant person and her alone. Wether she continues the pregnancy or ends it, in either case its a selfish decision

In life, if you assume the risks you should have to deal with the consequences of those risks, not find the easiest cop-out that's most convenient for you regardless of the life you created.  Sex isn't a joke, it's not all happy fun sexy times with no consequences.  There's a reason why evolution made it so children can't have babies: they aren't mature enough for those decisions or the life-and-death responsibilities that come with them.  Everyone who has sex knows there's a risk to get pregnant if you don't take proper precautions.  People want to have their cake and eat it too.  Maybe we should all take sex much more seriously than we do, because we have the power of a god to create life, or take it away.  There's nothing more serious we'll ever do in our lives than have sex. "I forgot to take my birth control so I let him f*ck me bareback in the ass and the semen leaked out when I farted & slipped inside my vag & now i'm pregnant".  Sorry I don't feel bad for you, you made a horrible decision and you're now a mommy, great story to tell the kids!

The reason I have to impose my morality on her is because there's another human life inside her now that her decisions created.  If you want to kill it, I consider that my business.  I don't give a crap what you do with the rest of your body, I care about that baby.

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She could very well have taken proper precautions.

Use a birth control pill, condom, smother it with spermicide, and use the rhythm method...maybe even an IUD. I can give you 100% guarantee, not 99.999%, but 100% that if you practice all those safe methods together properly as per instructions you won't ever get pregnant.  I've been using birth control properly with careful attention to proper application all my life with 100% success, so have most of my friends.  If you're really worried, add the clipping of vas deferens to the birth control mix.  Sucking an innocent baby out of your uterus and/or giving the baby lethal injection & then sucking it out isn't a morally acceptable method of birth control IMO.

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you are correct in pointing out that In order for his mind to be changed entire books about philosophy need be read and considered. The entire legal history surrounding abortions must also be reviewed and considered.
His entire concept of responsibility must also be considered in light of the law, philosophy and logic.

This is not the arena in which such things are done.

Yes it absolutely is.  Feel free to throw a few links my way.  Or have you painted me as evil already, the vile resentment towards me unchangeable?  Lesson #1: Empathize with your enemy.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2018, 02:31:23 pm »
Me too.  Aborting because of gender takes it to a whole 'nother level for me.

Because the baby is obviously 'wanted' and there are no physical or mental disabilities to take away the quality of life, and the parents' lives are in a way that they are both wanting to have a baby together and it just comes down to they don't want a girl. 

It devalues women in particular so more people are obviously going to be uneasy about it. 
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2018, 02:33:03 pm »
on that statistical support aspect, for what any single poll/survey is worth: per a 2017 Ipsos poll

I'm not a dictator.  Democracy is democracy, voters should ultimately decide abortion law.  I also wouldn't ban abortion if the mother's life is at stake, or in cases of ****, among other special circumstances.  **** means she didn't give consent, and her actions didn't create the baby, but it still comes with moral problems.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2018, 02:35:05 pm »
Cool, well have fun legitimizing oppressive beliefs under laughably fake mask of "genuine" discussion.

If I create you because I want to have happy fun sexy times but I make a horribly bad decision, and then I kill you, and then somebody objects to that...who's the one being oppressive?
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2018, 02:41:12 pm »
Trudeau is the dictator (do and think as I say, there is no debate)

What do you think of him forcing a pipeline through BC against the wishes of the government? 

You haven't commented much on that thread, but from the posts you "Agree" with, I get the feeling you don't mind a little selective dictatorship from the feds.


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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2018, 02:46:22 pm »
Ok, Mr. Graham, it seems you've made up your mind that helpless babies need protection from monstrous adults and nothing else really matters.  I shall bow politely out now, and leave you to your beliefs.  :)
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2018, 02:56:01 pm »
And I have a right to call their stance utterly stupid. Like I said, it's not up to me, you or anyone else on this board to educate someone on the things that already exist. It is not an honest discussion. And it's my "right" to call it the bullshit that it is.

I look at this nonsense like trying to convince betsy that the Bible is not real. There's literally zero point in doing that. Kimmy had a long drawn-out discussion about the Great Flood with her. It was entirely fruitless. That's because when someone digs in, they are not open to reason and they are not open to an "honest" discussion. If OP has read the political, philosophical, and legal literature on abortion and still needs convincing, then nobody here is going to do it. If he hasn't done his homework and wants us to inform him, then forget him. It's not my job to educate someone on readily available information. But that presupposes that it's an honest debate in the first place, when it's not. It's exactly like trying to explain to betsy that the Great Flood was physically not possible. There's no convincing someone who doesn't accept the information that's readily available.

I don't like when what I say is called stupid.  Maybe you think it's wrong, which is fine, but it's not stupid. I think I've been posting long enough on here and the other site to prove to everyone i'm not like betsy.  She believes in dogma, i believe in facts and logic, she doesn't.  I remember a time up until a few years ago when you and I agreed on almost everything. I guess we've gone different paths, I'm ok with that, are you?

Fair enough to say i could research this topic more, My current views i've had for only about a year when i started listening (i mean, really listening, and considering) to other views, before that i was pro-choice for over a decade, and i'll admit to being no expert on the subject, though not ignorant of it all either.  If you want to share specific links to rebuke some of my points, go for it.

If you want to save the world, the key i think is to empathize with people you disagree with.  Not sympathize, but empathize, to understand why they think the way they do.  Disagree with them, but don't hate them, don't dehumanize them, most people aren't evil.  Even Hitler had good intentions (in his own mind), that doesn't mean he wasn't horribly wrong.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2018, 03:00:31 pm »
What do you think of him forcing a pipeline through BC against the wishes of the government? 

You haven't commented much on that thread, but from the posts you "Agree" with, I get the feeling you don't mind a little selective dictatorship from the feds.

I replied to this in the thread.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2018, 03:07:33 pm »
Ok, Mr. Graham, it seems you've made up your mind that helpless babies need protection from monstrous adults and nothing else really matters.  I shall bow politely out now, and leave you to your beliefs.  :)

ok agree to disagree then.  i'll respond to your other posts when i get the chance.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2018, 03:21:14 pm »
Ok, Mr. Graham, it seems you've made up your mind that helpless babies need protection from monstrous adults and nothing else really matters.  I shall bow politely out now, and leave you to your beliefs.  :)

We all have varying levels of how far along and for what reason abortion would be justifiable.  It's definitely a personal choice, but on a philosophical level, his argument is actually more sound. 

If it's wrong to do, the reasons shouldn't really matter.

I can be pro choice and admit the hypocrisy in placing some arbitrary justifications on it (myself included).

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2018, 03:26:49 pm »
The debate here was shut down once abortion was called genocide. How does one surmount that? Whats to discuss?

I never said "abortion is genocide" (to my knowledge), what I said, word for word, with intent because genocide has a very specific definition, is to argue that abortion "is a kind of genocide".  I'm saying it's a targeted, mass killing (many millions) of a specific demographic/population group (unwanted unborn babies).  That doesn't quite make it the same as traditional genocide, but also has many similarities: specific demographic target, mass killings performed by state-sanctioned executioners, dehumanization of the victims to create moral loophole to legitimize it, victim-logic narratives to excuse those who do it & support it, private and public propaganda to legitimize it, a private and public shut-down of free speech to legitimize it.  A political party (Liberals) that under its own party policy, enacted by Trudeau, requires members/candidates to affirm strict obedience to this policy to be a member.

If i'm the crazy one what the heck's with everyone else?
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2018, 03:30:15 pm »
If I create you because I want to have happy fun sexy times but I make a horribly bad decision, and then I kill you, and then somebody objects to that...who's the one being oppressive?

What if birth control fails?  Should they be allowed to abort?

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2018, 03:35:32 pm »
The most important thing of this whole issue is:  morality and opinion is subjective.  We should all be free to disagree, and respect the people we disagree with as humans with emotional opinions even when passionately disagreeing.  In a democracy, those who agree most get to set the policy/laws, which i 100% respect.  Just don't tell me I don't have a right to disagree, because that's not only against the Charter (Mr. Trudeau, that your dad put in place) it's also just totally wrong...(in my opinion! ...heheh)
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley