I think you (Cybercoma in reply 35) may be on to something.
Equating abortion to genocide and mass killings then claiming pregnant woman are irresponsibly choosing to abort indicates that his position - like mine - is not open for rational debate.
Firstly, you're the person who "liked" cyber's original profanity-laced insult to me. That's been noted, thanks for the great contribution to this discussion! I know this topic gets very emotionally charged, but that's uncalled for.
2ndly, use logic to convince me how the killing of many millions of innocent human lives is not mass murder, or not a type of unborn-baby genocide. Here's your logic from a previous reply that i hadn't had a chance to respond to, since it's basically me here vs everyone else:
First off, abortion is not killing - as in murder. The fetus, or baby if you find that a more preferable term, has no existence as an individual separate from the mother. it is entirely 100% dependant upon the mother for all sustenance. It can't even leave or wander away from its mother. It has no known thought process or desires or wishes or wants. not even a survival instinct. There is nothing about the baby to suggest that it is a separate human entity from mom.
It has a heartbeat, a brain, spinal cord, legs, arms etc. All of it starts to appear and grow within the 1st trimester. A common strategy to argue pro-choice is to dehumanize the growing human, and I did this for a long time too. If we can convince ourselves that this growing being isn't fully human, it makes it morally digestible for us to be able to end its life. The horrific dark reality to this is that this is exactly the same tactic that racists used to legitimize slavery of blacks, and the exact same tactic that Nazis used to enslave & commit mass murder against the Jews. If they are dehumanized, seen as less than human, we have a moral loophole to enslave & murder these people, en masse. Think about that for a minute.
And yes here you have this growing little human life 100% completely dependent on the mother. A common pro-choice argument is to say that the baby is using the mother's body as its slave, it's holding her hostage to survive. This is argument is an abomination. If anything, it's the mother who is keeping the baby as its slave. The mother is the one whose decisions & actions led to the creation of the baby & it had no choice, and now this baby's life is 100% dependent on the mother. The mother was 100% aware her actions could lead to pregnancy if proper precautions were not taken. Here's a very bold comparison that may offend you and others, but think about it for a minute: mothers who choose abortion are the slave owners, the baby is the slave, the womb is the concentration camp, the abortion clinic is the gas chamber, the doctor is the executioner (consensually following orders), Trudeau is the dictator (do and think as I say, there is no debate), the laws are the laws, the people who support or follow along are just people all the same. Yeah that comparison might seem pretty crazy at first, but think about it. Just under a million babies aborted in the USA every year, the vast majority of those would be walking & talking right now. About 230 induced abortions per 1000 live births in USA every year. That's a lot! So, is it so crazy to call it a kind of genocide? Mass murder? Are the people who oppose abortion evil bible-thumpers who just want to "control women's bodies", or are many of these people (especially in US) well-meaning Christians who value life and the responsibility of having sex, and who didn't grow up in a culture where you f*cked anyone you wanted whenever you wanted before marriage. I'm not religious btw.
The pregnancy could very well be against her will. She may have wanted the sexual congress but not want the pregnancy that resulted. Where do you get off deciding that if she engages in sexual intercourse she must want to be pregnant? That is something that you cannot possibly know or even safely assume. She could very well have taken proper precautions. Even if she didn't take precautions niether your moral values or anyone else moral values get to trump her moral values regarding what she does with her own body. If she doesn't wish to be pregnant or remain pregnant you got no ground to impose your morality on her.
The baby has never had any choice about wether it lives or dies. It doesn't even choose to exist. Biology makes that choice, not that biology actually chooses anything. The baby is not a separate entity from the mother until birth.
And , yes its a selfish argument. It has to be because it only concerns the pregnant person and her alone. Wether she continues the pregnancy or ends it, in either case its a selfish decision
In life, if you assume the risks you should have to deal with the consequences of those risks, not find the easiest cop-out that's most convenient for you regardless of the life you created. Sex isn't a joke, it's not all happy fun sexy times with no consequences. There's a reason why evolution made it so children can't have babies: they aren't mature enough for those decisions or the life-and-death responsibilities that come with them. Everyone who has sex knows there's a risk to get pregnant if you don't take proper precautions. People want to have their cake and eat it too. Maybe we should all take sex much more seriously than we do, because we have the power of a god to create life, or take it away. There's nothing more serious we'll ever do in our lives than have sex. "I forgot to take my birth control so I let him f*ck me bareback in the ass and the semen leaked out when I farted & slipped inside my vag & now i'm pregnant". Sorry I don't feel bad for you, you made a horrible decision and you're now a mommy, great story to tell the kids!
The reason I have to impose my morality on her is because there's another human life inside her now that her decisions created. If you want to kill it, I consider that my business. I don't give a crap what you do with the rest of your body, I care about that baby.
She could very well have taken proper precautions.
Use a birth control pill, condom, smother it with spermicide, and use the rhythm method...maybe even an IUD. I can give you 100% guarantee, not 99.999%, but 100% that if you practice all those safe methods
together properly as per instructions you won't ever get pregnant. I've been using birth control properly with careful attention to proper application all my life with 100% success, so have most of my friends. If you're really worried, add the clipping of vas deferens to the birth control mix. Sucking an innocent baby out of your uterus and/or giving the baby lethal injection & then sucking it out isn't a morally acceptable method of birth control IMO.
you are correct in pointing out that In order for his mind to be changed entire books about philosophy need be read and considered. The entire legal history surrounding abortions must also be reviewed and considered.
His entire concept of responsibility must also be considered in light of the law, philosophy and logic.
This is not the arena in which such things are done.
Yes it absolutely is. Feel free to throw a few links my way. Or have you painted me as evil already, the vile resentment towards me unchangeable? Lesson #1: Empathize with your enemy.