Author Topic: Why should abortion be allowed?  (Read 1636 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2018, 11:32:37 am »
Should we say those people in the four eastern provinces have no right to disagree or discuss anything because they're the minority?

Why are you addressing this post to me?  Didn't I clearly argue for NOT shutting down this debate?

Or are you just taking fault with my use of the word 'small'?  Ok, I'll make it Small-er.

Hope that makes you happy.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 11:35:12 am by BC_cheque »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2018, 11:38:55 am »
Why are you addressing this post to me?  Didn't I clearly argue for NOT shutting down this debate?

Or are you just taking fault with my use of the word 'small'?  Ok, I'll make it Small-er.

Hope that makes you happy.

Yes, I was taking issue with the word small, as in unimportant to the point their views should not be listened to. And yes, I'm aware you personally were not making that suggestion. I learned to read months ago. But these posts are not designed to be read by one individual nor is the point being made, presuming they have one.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Peter F

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2018, 11:39:43 am »
Calling something stupid and telling other posters good luck 'normalizing' this, is shutting down debate.

 Nothings been shut down. Debate to your hearts content. Neither Cyber nor I nor anyone else can stop you or anyone else.
This debate will be shut down once people realize that there are huge mountains that need be climbed in regards to what is killing and responsibility.
 The debate here was shut down once abortion was called genocide. How does one surmount that? Whats to discuss?
 Am I, or anyone else, to now accept that abortion is genocide in order to then have a rational debate on the reasonable ethical limits of genocide?
 There is no debate because there is no common ground with which to maintain a rational discussion?

 It seems to me that the only people who have any hope of engaging PG in rational debate are those that fundimentally agree that abortion is killing/murder/genocide but may think that perhaps some little leeway in extreme cases might perhaps be allowed. Those are the only folks that can possibly engage in a supposed debate with PG.

 Look whats happened here, on this very thread: PG issued the challenge "Why should abortion be allowed. Convince me. Its mass murder. Its genocide. Lets debate"
 Me: Its not any of those things. Not even a little bit.

 . Whats to discuss. For anything to continue either I accept it is indeed murder or he accepts that it is not.
Debate ends. Shut down. There is nowhere to go.



 
 
 

 
 
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2018, 11:48:26 am »
Look whats happened here, on this very thread: PG issued the challenge "Why should abortion be allowed. Convince me. Its mass murder. Its genocide. Lets debate"
 Me: Its not any of those things. Not even a little bit.

 . Whats to discuss. For anything to continue either I accept it is indeed murder or he accepts that it is not.
Debate ends. Shut down. There is nowhere to go.
 

Then don't read it.  That's what I did with any of taxme and Betsy's threads.  I didn't go on them and start calling them names.

ETA, ok I might have made a joke here and there but I never would've said others who are engaging shouldn't.  The only time I would've said don't engage is with trolls and I don't think PG is being a troll at all.  He's entitled to his belief.


Offline waldo

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2018, 11:55:53 am »
Not that small. Roughly 20% want to end all abortion. Of the 77% who support abortion, about 53% support abortion on demand. That leaves a sizable group of people who either want to ban abortion or simply want some laws in place to control it.

Fun fact. There are more than twice as many people who want to ban abortion as their are people living in Atlantic Canada. Should we say those people in the four eastern provinces have no right to disagree or discuss anything because they're the minority?

bullshyte artist! By the numbers you've put forward you're referencing the same Ipsos 2017 single poll (for what any single poll is worth), that I referred to in an earlier post in this thread... that I actually identified as being from an Ipsos 2017 poll. That poll states:
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Conversely, about one in ten Canadians (12%) feel abortion should not be permitted. This group is split between those who think abortion should only be permitted when the life of the mother is in danger (7%), and those who are completely opposed to it under any circumstance (5%)

Offline Peter F

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2018, 12:01:05 pm »
Then don't read cybers post. Or if you do (and did) then why claim he's shutting down debate like some common lefty?
He didn't shut anything down as proven by you answering his post.
 Somebody saying this subject is stupid and pointless and that the OP is basically a troll is a legitimate position to take.
 Cyber didn't shut down a goddamn thing because neither he nor anyone else (except perhaps the moderator if there is one) has any power over what you think or say or type.

 Cybercoma hasn't even started to shut you down. When he shows up and takes you keyboard let me know.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2018, 12:03:59 pm »
There is no debate. The whole idea that there is a debate to be had is ridiculous.

You sound like a dictator.  That's what self-righteousness does.  Did you write the Canada Summer Jobs program declaration too?

I'm not trying to change the law, I'm having a discussion, which is harmless.  You're so tolerant and such an advocate of diversity, but you have zero tolerance for those that disagree with you and have little respect for a diversity of ideas, like most who share your dangerous anti-democratic ideology which has been spreading through university campuses lately. 

You don't just disagree with me, you show such vile, seething contempt and resentment towards me and my views.  You have deep resentment and hatred in your heart, and that only leads down a path to evil.  Like hauling Linsday Shepherd in front of an inquisition for daring to show a clip from publicly funded TVO.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2018, 12:05:24 pm »
Why?  Even if he's completely anti-abortion, his opinion or anyone like him is not going to change our laws. 

It seems we're pretty much all pro-choice to varying levels, isn't this the perfect forum for him to explore opposing opinions?  He said he's gone back and forth and wants to see if he can be swayed back.

It's not like he's protesting outside an abortion clinic.

Thank you.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2018, 12:13:51 pm »
Cybercoma hasn't even started to shut you down. When he shows up and takes you keyboard let me know.

That's not the only way to shut down a debate.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2018, 12:19:14 pm »
I agree with the better education part.  Speaking strictly from my own personal experience and not for anyone else, there is this mentality that I was brought up about abortion with which irks me now that I'm older.  I was told that it's nothing but cells in the beginning when it's actually not true.  There is a heartbeat quite early on and the fetus is formed by around 12 weeks. 

I never understood why a debate even exists and I feel it's because I wasn't really given an accurate picture of what the beginning entails.  Even though I could never be anti-choice, I wish the opposite wasn't 'it's really nothing but a few cells'.

I wouldn't go full Sarah Palin, or Poonlight Graham, and think that all life must be born and I don't think people should have babies that are unwanted, but I evolved on when life begins and became personally anti-abortion (in that I wouldn't have one myself).

Well I'm glad you've thought a lot about the matter.  Not that a pro-choice person hasn't, but I hadn't fully heard all the arguments when i was pro-choice, and I'm sure I still haven't, hence this thread.  Hopefully I can share some of the arguments I've learned with others who may not have heard them.  It's amazing what can be learned by just listening with an open mind.

The common argument that early life is just "a bundle of cells" is ridiculous.  You and I are just a bundle of cells too I guess.  A bundle of cells would be more like me scraping some dead skin off the inside of my cheek and spitting it onto a microscope lens.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2018, 12:43:45 pm »
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

You fear debate and free speech.  Like Mr. Trudeau on this issue.  When exactly does opinion become truth? When you say so?  Might as well shut down this whole site then and start up a Facebook app to indoctrinate people.  If you had the power to lock this thread, would you?  Is it that dangerous?  Have you ever read Fahrenheit 451 or George Orwell?

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More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him. If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself. There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed, whether he wants a medical, legal or philosophical perspective. It's not someone else's job to convince him. If he's too damn lazy to educate himself on the topic, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a damn bit of difference. It's insincere sea-lioning. That's it. There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.

I've changed my mind before, I can change it again.  If my mind wasn't open to change based on reasonable evidence and logic I'd shoot myself, it's the whole point of debate & learning.  If you don't believe me, I don't really care.  If you want to spread false accusations about me based on little evidence, have fun.  "Sea-lioning"?, is that a new radical university-progressivist term designed to shut me up?  If you're not interested in debate, please get out of my thread and stop derailing it with your childish flame-war ad hominem BS.  If not, i'll get JMT to do it for me (if he's still around...).

I was never banned from MLW, maybe there was a good reason you were, I dunno.  I came here to get away from this shyte.

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If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself.

That's what I'm doing.

Quote
There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed.

Post some links, I'll read them. *gasp*
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Offline Omni

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2018, 12:44:28 pm »
Well I'm glad you've thought a lot about the matter.  Not that a pro-choice person hasn't, but I hadn't fully heard all the arguments when i was pro-choice, and I'm sure I still haven't, hence this thread.  Hopefully I can share some of the arguments I've learned with others who may not have heard them.  It's amazing what can be learned by just listening with an open mind.

The common argument that early life is just "a bundle of cells" is ridiculous.  You and I are just a bundle of cells too I guess.  A bundle of cells would be more like me scraping some dead skin off the inside of my cheek and spitting it onto a microscope lens.

You are a bundle of cells that has matured to a point were it can survive on its own. A zygote is not.
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Offline Goddess

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2018, 12:46:56 pm »
I am pro-choice and I have run through many scenarios in my head of what the circumstances would have to be for me to choose an abortion.  (Obviously, this is no longer an issue - Yay, menopause!  :))  So I am very clear on what the boundaries would be - for myself,  personally.  Pro-choice means I allow others the same choice of defining their own boundaries.

When I worked for the Doctor, I had to arrange abortions for patients.  I remember one woman in particular was just in total anguish over the decision - she waited til the last legal minute to decide and sobbed every time she came into the clinic.  It irritates me when anti-abortionists portray the women involved as just merrily going through life, getting knocked up and aborting thoughtlessly.  In my experience, this is seldom the case.  It's an agonizing decision, hard on a woman's body and hard on the emotions.  I can't tell someone else what decsion they are able to live with the consequences of and what personal factors they need to consider. 

So the whole "When does life begin?" "What if a woman is ****?" etc.....these are personal questions, which can only be answered by the individual women.  Some women who are **** and get pregnant keep the baby and raise it, others are not able emotionally to carry their rapist's baby for 9 months and then give it up for adoption.......

It's best if each decides for themselves, based on their own circumstances and beliefs.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2018, 12:51:58 pm »
I am pro-choice and I have run through many scenarios in my head of what the circumstances would have to be for me to choose an abortion.  (Obviously, this is no longer an issue - Yay, menopause!  :))  So I am very clear on what the boundaries would be - for myself,  personally.  Pro-choice means I allow others the same choice of defining their own boundaries.

When I worked for the Doctor, I had to arrange abortions for patients.  I remember one woman in particular was just in total anguish over the decision - she waited til the last legal minute to decide and sobbed every time she came into the clinic.  It irritates me when anti-abortionists portray the women involved as just merrily going through life, getting knocked up and aborting thoughtlessly.  In my experience, this is seldom the case.  It's an agonizing decision, hard on a woman's body and hard on the emotions.  I can't tell someone else what decsion they are able to live with the consequences of and what personal factors they need to consider. 

So the whole "When does life begin?" "What if a woman is ****?" etc.....these are personal questions, which can only be answered by the individual women.  Some women who are **** and get pregnant keep the baby and raise it, others are not able emotionally to carry their rapist's baby for 9 months and then give it up for adoption.......

It's best if each decides for themselves, based on their own circumstances and beliefs.

Which is why I think our Supreme Court was wise when they simply tore that page out of the criminal code which allowed that significant  decision to be made by a woman and her doctor. 

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2018, 12:58:41 pm »
I am pro-choice and I have run through many scenarios in my head of what the circumstances would have to be for me to choose an abortion.  (Obviously, this is no longer an issue - Yay, menopause!  :))  So I am very clear on what the boundaries would be - for myself,  personally.  Pro-choice means I allow others the same choice of defining their own boundaries.

When I worked for the Doctor, I had to arrange abortions for patients.  I remember one woman in particular was just in total anguish over the decision - she waited til the last legal minute to decide and sobbed every time she came into the clinic.  It irritates me when anti-abortionists portray the women involved as just merrily going through life, getting knocked up and aborting thoughtlessly.  In my experience, this is seldom the case.  It's an agonizing decision, hard on a woman's body and hard on the emotions.  I can't tell someone else what decsion they are able to live with the consequences of and what personal factors they need to consider. 

So the whole "When does life begin?" "What if a woman is ****?" etc.....these are personal questions, which can only be answered by the individual women.  Some women who are **** and get pregnant keep the baby and raise it, others are not able emotionally to carry their rapist's baby for 9 months and then give it up for adoption.......

It's best if each decides for themselves, based on their own circumstances and beliefs.

Even though I think life begins much earlier than most, there are some circumstances under which I would have an abortion too.

Having said that, I still think people should have a right to discuss it without being shamed.