Author Topic: Why should abortion be allowed?  (Read 477 times)

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Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2018, 10:57:52 pm »
This thread is **** stupid. Read a god damned book.

Thanks for the drive-by profanity-laced insult flaming yet again, with no argument whatsoever.  If you're interested in debate, please join.  If you have such self-righteous contempt for anyone that has a different viewpoint than you I don't even know why you bother on here.  Learn some god damned manners.
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2018, 12:07:01 am »
This thread is **** stupid. Read a god damned book.

Why?  Even if he's completely anti-abortion, his opinion or anyone like him is not going to change our laws. 

It seems we're pretty much all pro-choice to varying levels, isn't this the perfect forum for him to explore opposing opinions?  He said he's gone back and forth and wants to see if he can be swayed back.

It's not like he's protesting outside an abortion clinic.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2018, 12:35:54 am »
I think more education and access to birth control is needed to avoid all of this in the first place.

I agree with the better education part.  Speaking strictly from my own personal experience and not for anyone else, there is this mentality that I was brought up about abortion with which irks me now that I'm older.  I was told that it's nothing but cells in the beginning when it's actually not true.  There is a heartbeat quite early on and the fetus is formed by around 12 weeks. 

I never understood why a debate even exists and I feel it's because I wasn't really given an accurate picture of what the beginning entails.  Even though I could never be anti-choice, I wish the opposite wasn't 'it's really nothing but a few cells'.

I wouldn't go full Sarah Palin, or Poonlight Graham, and think that all life must be born and I don't think people should have babies that are unwanted, but I evolved on when life begins and became personally anti-abortion (in that I wouldn't have one myself). 

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2018, 07:18:55 am »
There is a heartbeat quite early on

Even a mosquito has a heartbeat, something to think about in about 6-8 weeks from now.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2018, 07:36:52 am »
Thanks for the drive-by profanity-laced insult flaming yet again, with no argument whatsoever.  If you're interested in debate, please join.  If you have such self-righteous contempt for anyone that has a different viewpoint than you I don't even know why you bother on here.  Learn some god damned manners.
There is no debate. The whole idea that there is a debate to be had is ridiculous.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2018, 07:37:36 am »
Why?  Even if he's completely anti-abortion, his opinion or anyone like him is not going to change our laws. 

It seems we're pretty much all pro-choice to varying levels, isn't this the perfect forum for him to explore opposing opinions?  He said he's gone back and forth and wants to see if he can be swayed back.

It's not like he's protesting outside an abortion clinic.
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him. If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself. There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed, whether he wants a medical, legal or philosophical perspective. It's not someone else's job to convince him. If he's too damn lazy to educate himself on the topic, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a damn bit of difference. It's insincere sea-lioning. That's it. There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 07:41:15 am by cybercoma »
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guest4

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2018, 08:08:30 am »
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him. If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself. There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed, whether he wants a medical, legal or philosophical perspective. It's not someone else's job to convince him. If he's too damn lazy to educate himself on the topic, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a damn bit of difference. It's insincere sea-lioning. That's it. There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.

If you don't like it, don't drop by.   Stopping in on people to inform them, rudely, that they shouldn't be discussing something seems a tad arrogant.   And what kind of world would it be if discussion were banned on topics that had already been "decided"?  Even if you doubt the  OP's sincerity and disagree with the topic, there are certainly more respectful ways of expressing your views. 
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Offline Peter F

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2018, 08:38:53 am »
I think you (Cybercoma in reply 35) may be on to something.
Equating abortion to genocide and mass killings then claiming pregnant woman are irresponsibly choosing to abort indicates that his position - like mine - is not open for rational debate.
you are correct in pointing out that In order for his mind to be changed entire books about philosophy need be read and considered. The entire legal history surrounding abortions must also be reviewed and considered.
His entire concept of responsibility must also be considered in light of the law, philosophy and logic.

This is not the arena in which such things are done.
I suspect you are correct and PH has entrenched himself on his hill and dares us lefty hordes to come take him out.
And I am foolish enough to shout "You die now GI!" .


 
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Offline Peter F

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2018, 08:48:45 am »
If you don't like it, don't drop by.   Stopping in on people to inform them, rudely, that they shouldn't be discussing something seems a tad arrogant.   And what kind of world would it be if discussion were banned on topics that had already been "decided"?  Even if you doubt the  OP's sincerity and disagree with the topic, there are certainly more respectful ways of expressing your views.

 I dunno about that. Was PG being respectful ? I think not. Women choosing abortion are killers. Irresponsible to boot. Has PG been respectful? Do we actually expect him to be respectful to murderers? Willing to rationally consider the woman actions in a manner that is respectful?
  It doesn't appear so. 
  Cyber is correct. This pretends to be a debate where PG claims he can be convinced given rational argument. I think, in light of his characterizations of abortion and those seeking it, give lie to his claims of an open mind.
"Never take on the role of management"
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Offline waldo

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2018, 09:21:48 am »
There is no debate. The whole idea that there is a debate to be had is ridiculous.
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him.
.
.
There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.

the pro-life's postured open-mindedness lacks appropriate references... as in speaking to the law (or absence therein) and its iterative underpinnings, as in speaking to the medical basis for and contributing influences toward the status-quo, as in recognizing a woman's domain, as in speaking to representative statistics for Canadians support of pro-life versus pro-choice, etc.. This lack of proper referencing and framing does act to normalize the idea that abortion is 'up for debate'... on the broader level. On the OP's personal level, to me, the more appropriate approach should have been to make an up-front personal case for pro-life positioning recognizing legalities, medical aspects, statistical support, etc..

on that statistical support aspect, for what any single poll/survey is worth: per a 2017 Ipsos poll
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There remains a group, representing about 5% of the Canadian population, that feels abortion should never be permitted under any circumstance, even if the life of the mother is at stake.

Another 7% told Ipsos that abortion should only be allowed when the life of the mother is in danger.

About one in 10 Canadians arenít sure where they stand on the issue.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2018, 09:29:23 am »
Even a mosquito has a heartbeat, something to think about in about 6-8 weeks from now.

Whatís your point?  An embryo at 8 weeks is like a mosquito?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 09:41:55 am by BC_cheque »

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2018, 09:30:43 am »
I dunno about that. Was PG being respectful ? I think not. Women choosing abortion are killers. Irresponsible to boot. Has PG been respectful? Do we actually expect him to be respectful to murderers? Willing to rationally consider the woman actions in a manner that is respectful?
  It doesn't appear so. 
  Cyber is correct. This pretends to be a debate where PG claims he can be convinced given rational argument. I think, in light of his characterizations of abortion and those seeking it, give lie to his claims of an open mind.

Men are on board with abortions too. Itís not an attack on women, I read it as a critique on society as a whole.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2018, 09:39:39 am »
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him. If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself. There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed, whether he wants a medical, legal or philosophical perspective. It's not someone else's job to convince him. If he's too damn lazy to educate himself on the topic, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a damn bit of difference. It's insincere sea-lioning. That's it. There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.


Iíve debated the ethics behind meat eating which is an accepted domain and nobody gets this worked up over it.

A small portion of people have differing views on abortion and they have a right to debate it.

guest4

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2018, 09:43:53 am »
****, slavery, murder, and child molestation is a completely normal and natural human activity.  It's been carried on since humans first walked the earth.
Point taken.

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Baby murder while outside the womb, as opposed to baby murder while inside the womb.
Baby is an emotionally laden word.  Until a fetus is viable outside the womb, it's only a "potential" baby and it may be rejected at any time by the body.  So long as the fetus requires the femle's body to survive and can be rejected by that body at any time, then it has no existence or identity separate from that body. 

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This makes no logical sense whatsoever.  I'm 100% completely against patriarchy and I dislike most religions. This feeds into the common argument of: "Pro-lifers/Christians/Men need to stop trying to control women's bodies".
In the Biblical passage I quoted earlier, do you suppose if a woman had gone to a priest to ask for an abortion, it would have been allowed?  Do you suppose it's coincidence that abortion became more socially acceptable only after women gained more societal power?   Or that methods of abortion have been known by women throughout history, but often hidden from the men.

 
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Nobody gives a rat about a woman's boobs, their neck, their legs, their clitoris, their uterus or any other part of their bodies.  Go amputate both your arms, get a bad boob job, dye your hair green, remove one eyeball, and get a tattoo of a naked Whoopi Goldberg across your back for all I care.
Even in the most patriarchal society, no individual man ever thinks "he" wants to control a woman's body but he takes for granted his socially and legally supported rights to control and direct his wife, his right to sex, his status as leader and discipliner of the family, especially the females.  Our society is definitely moving away from that degree of patriarchy, but the dregs are there in the religious support for anti-abortion policies.  Your rejection of that as a reason for your beliefs about abortion doesn't mean it's any less sprung from patriarchy.

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What I actually care about is the little innocent human being growing inside a woman's body that the woman created through their own willful actions but refuse to take any responsibility for except to murder it.  (yes, men involved too, but still ultimately the woman's choice too except in cases of ****).

This infuriates me.  Why is it "the woman" who is automatically responsible for unwanted pregnancy in men's (and religious twit's) minds?   No birth control is 100% effective, even when used perfectly.  Women, being human, aren't perfect and so sometimes they get pregnant even though they aren't planning to, and aren't ready to.  And, surprising as it may seem to you, men who sabotage women's birth control efforts are not as uncommon as you think.   Do you know what happens all too often if a woman truly and accidentally gets pregnant and Daddy isn't interested?  He accuses her of tricking him because she secretly wanted a baby, denies the baby is his, pressures her to abort regardless of her feelings about it, and does his damndest to avoid any and all responsibility.  So yeah, in the nice tidy world inhabited by religious twits and conservative atheists - it's woman's responsibility to be pregnant, or not, depending on what the man wants - and she's the murderer of babies if she fails to be anything but perfectly acquiescent to what the man or the religious twits expect of her.

If you want to claim that abortion is murder because its a baby that is entitled to rights from the moment of conception, then that little baby should be charged for imposing itself on the woman without her express consent and keeping her confined for those months the baby took over her body.  And the father should also have to pay for inserting his seed to create the baby: perhaps a jail term or forced marriage without the possibility of divorce would be appropriate. 

 If you don't like abortion, start by changing attitudes about who holds primary responsibility for birth control - that would be the people having sex, whether male or female; two forms of birth control is 100% effective.   Once you've got that covered, follow up by making the care of children a societal priority, even for families who have too many kids, or families that are poor, or families that only have one parent for whatever reason.   Start creating a world where all babies and children are valued and cherished by the society even after they leave the womb, and maybe the whole issue of abortion would just disappear since by and large it's social and economic pressure that drives abortion, not female selfishness and irresponsibility.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2018, 09:47:22 am »
If you don't like it, don't drop by.   Stopping in on people to inform them, rudely, that they shouldn't be discussing something seems a tad arrogant.   And what kind of world would it be if discussion were banned on topics that had already been "decided"?  Even if you doubt the  OP's sincerity and disagree with the topic, there are certainly more respectful ways of expressing your views.
Cool, well have fun legitimizing oppressive beliefs under laughably fake mask of "genuine" discussion.