Author Topic: Why should abortion be allowed?  (Read 477 times)

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Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2018, 09:55:05 pm »
The question of whether a fetus is a person worthy of rights is purely metaphysical and has no utilitarian basis (i.e. public safety/health etc). People who wish to believe that should be be free to apply that principle to their own lives, however, without a utilitarian justification these beliefs should not be imposed on others.

I dont understand what you mean by this.  Please clarify.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2018, 10:14:19 pm »
I dont understand what you mean by this.  Please clarify.
Whenever we prohibit an action there is a justification that does not depend on agreement on a metaphysical belief such as the intrinsic value of a human being. For example, murder is prohibited because people don't want to be a victim of murder (i.e. the golden rule - do unto others as you would they do unto you). The prohibition also has the effect of creating a society where people can live with less fear of others which provides a utilitarian benefit for society as a whole.

Pick any prohibited action and you should see the utilitarian benefit fairly quickly. If you find a prohibited action that does not have utilitarian benefit then it is probably something that should be allowed.

I can't think of any utilitarian benefit that comes from banning abortion but I can think of many if it is allowed (fewer unwanted children, maternal health, etc).

 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 10:21:13 pm by TimG »

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2018, 12:11:43 am »
1. I honestly don't know those facts.  Would be good to know though, so good question.

2. Here's the thing...that's a great point, I'd feel bad for the kids.  But having a not-so-great upbringing is better than having no upbringing at all.  If your mom had the choice to put you in an orphanage or abort you, which would you have preferred?  Do all those residential school victims want to die, or to live?  All choice emphasis by many pro-choice advocates is on the mother, but no regard to the baby who has no power whether they are created, able to live, or their killed via abortion.  This will sound macabre (but so discussing killing unborn babies)...but even if a child has to go into an orphanage and may not have a great upbringing, if they're unhappy and they don't want to live, they can commit suicide to end their own life, instead of having others make that decision for them.  There's lots of unhappy orphans and kids in foster homes etc, some who commit suicide or live on the stret, but also many who choose live, and have a life worth living.  Why not live them that chance?  Why not reform the child welfare system in general so these kids have love somewhere?


Committing suicide takes incredible bravery, I don't care how much people say it's a sign of weakness.  All living beings have an inherent fear of death and no matter how awful life may be, it's not easy to take one's own life.  I don't think that's a great argument to make about letting people sort themselves out.  People end up living desperate lives and never get the courage to commit suicide.

As for which I would have preferred between not being born or not having loving caregivers, in all honesty, not to be born.  Obviously it's a personal opinion but I remember when I was little and my mom explained that some kids don't have parents or parents who are cruel and hurt them, I was aghast.  My parents were my world.  They gave me security and comfort.  How could it possibly be to not have that, or have parents who hurt you. 

I could not imagine growing up as a vulnerable child and having to fend for myself and being abused by people who were supposed to take care of me. 

At some point you have to consider not just life as an organism, but quality of life as well. 

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Offline Peter F

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2018, 03:05:57 am »
... I've thought about it a lot, and have come to the conclusion through much logical reasoning why it shouldn't be allowed and why it's morally wrong.  But if logical reasoning can be used to persuade me to change my mind again and argue successfully as to why my opinions are logically and morally wrong, I'm all ears.  It won't be easy though.
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However, what i'll counter is that she should have thought of that before she willfully undertook actions that made her become pregnant.  Her actions (along with the actions of the man) led to her becoming pregnant.  Now she has created a human life by her own willful actions (& inactions).  How is killing a human life an acceptable form of birth control?  The time for proper use of birth control was BEFORE the pregnancy.
First off, abortion is not killing - as in murder.  The fetus, or baby if you find that a more preferable term, has no existence as an individual separate from the mother. it is entirely 100% dependant upon the mother for all sustenance. It can't even leave or wander away from its mother. It has no known thought process or desires or wishes or wants. not even a survival instinct. There is nothing about the baby to suggest that it is a separate human entity from mom.    Abortion is an acceptable form of birth control - albeit a form of last resort - because some people choose to do so. So it is, in fact, acceptable. Not by you, I understand that.

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The pregnancy isn't against her will, it was her will that made it become so in the first place.  Now there's an innocent baby human life involved, the baby never asked to be created, it's a slave to the mother, 100% wholly dependent on her, creation and death.  Why should the baby be killed without its consent, against its will, when its creation is 100% entirely the responsibility of the mother (and father)?  All because the mom and dad wanted to have fun sexy times and didn't live up to their responsibility to use proper precautions.  It's a horribly selfish argument.
The pregnancy could very well be against her will. She may have wanted the sexual congress but not want the pregnancy that resulted. Where do you get off deciding that if she engages in sexual intercourse she must want to be pregnant? That is something that you cannot possibly know or even safely assume.  She could very well have taken proper precautions. Even if she didn't take precautions niether your moral values or anyone else moral values get to trump her moral values regarding what she does with her own body. If she doesn't wish to be pregnant or remain pregnant you got no ground to impose your morality on her.
  The baby has never had any choice about wether it lives or dies. It doesn't even choose to exist. Biology makes that choice, not that biology actually chooses anything.  The baby is not a separate entity from the mother until birth.
 And , yes its a selfish argument. It has to be because it only concerns the pregnant person and her alone. Wether she continues the pregnancy or ends it, in either case its a selfish decision
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Abortion rights across the world means the deaths of millions of unborn babies.  It's a slaughter, a mass genocide of unwanted babies.  When your choices affect another living human life because of your bad choices that resulted in pregnancy you could have prevented, it's not just about the rights of the mother.  With great power comes great responsibility.  If the woman screws up, time to adult-up, take responsibility for your actions and mistake, put up with 9 months of inconvenience, and then give the baby up for adoption if you don't the baby. Lots of gay couples etc looking.
Again, millions of babies aren't  being killed. There is no slaughter or mass genocide of unwanted babies. and it is entirely and completely about the rights of the mother - there are no others rights involved.
  If she screws up she can adult up by taking responsibility for her actions and mistakes by ending the pregnancy - or continuing it, as she determines to be the best, more responsible thing to do. She is the one that is fully aware of her situation and capability. At least far more aware than you or others.

 
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Offline Peter F

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2018, 02:56:36 pm »
But the major point of allowing abortions:  Abortions will be done no matter the legality.   So, need we repeat the entire Morgantaler era?  Should the whole train of events that led up to de-criminalization be brushed aside? Shall we pretend there is no past and inevitable repeat it?
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Offline Omni

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2018, 03:31:02 pm »
But the major point of allowing abortions:  Abortions will be done no matter the legality.   So, need we repeat the entire Morgantaler era?  Should the whole train of events that led up to de-criminalization be brushed aside? Shall we pretend there is no past and inevitable repeat it?

All good points. Do we want to go back to the days when women had to scurry across the border or, heaven forbid, end up seeking the services of some knitting needle artist in a back alley? I would of course wish there were never another abortion, but only due to the fact there was never another unwanted pregnancy. Maybe we need to focus more and maybe earlier on sex education in schools.   

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2018, 03:53:22 pm »
Women will get abortions whether it's "allowed" or not. They did so prior to the change in Canadian law and many of them died obtaining illegal abortions.

Oh? How many?
I'm not sure the situation can be compared. Back then, being pregnant outside of marriage was a massive societal shame and humiliation. You were ruined. Your family name was in tatters! No one would ever want you! And how could you possibly support yourself and your child!?

None of that prevails any longer.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2018, 03:57:03 pm »

Committing suicide takes incredible bravery, I don't care how much people say it's a sign of weakness.  All living beings have an inherent fear of death and no matter how awful life may be, it's not easy to take one's own life.

Nonsense. The reason people kill themselves is they believe it's preferable to facing something else. So yes, it IS a sign of weakness, unless, of course, that something else truly IS worse. Continual, debilitating pain which can't be treated or cured, for example. Or some terrible physical impairment.

One of my uncles killed himself when he got a girl pregnant outside of marriage back in the 50s. I regard that as weakness and cowardice. He couldn't face his family.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2018, 04:07:52 pm »
Oh? How many?
I'm not sure the situation can be compared. Back then, being pregnant outside of marriage was a massive societal shame and humiliation. You were ruined. Your family name was in tatters! No one would ever want you! And how could you possibly support yourself and your child!?

None of that prevails any longer.

How many do you suggest there would be if we outlawed it again? None? Not likely.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 06:53:09 pm »
How many do you suggest there would be if we outlawed it again? None? Not likely.

Damned few, if any. I don't favour banning abortion myself, but in a society built on compromise I'm perfectly willing to limit it at least as much as Sweden or France do.
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Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2018, 08:16:16 pm »
Whenever we prohibit an action there is a justification that does not depend on agreement on a metaphysical belief such as the intrinsic value of a human being. For example, murder is prohibited because people don't want to be a victim of murder (i.e. the golden rule - do unto others as you would they do unto you).

I can't think of any utilitarian benefit that comes from banning abortion but I can think of many if it is allowed (fewer unwanted children, maternal health, etc).

How about abortion should be prohibited because people don't want to be a victim of abortion.
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2018, 08:25:31 pm »
I don't think you can separate those who willfully decided to use abortion as birth control and those who made a mistake with their birth control.  Then there are those who planned on a child, and then decided against it, for whatever reason.  It's like I said, being pro choice, I don't want to start vetting choices.

Exactly.  So why not ban abortion then, except in cases of **** and danger to mother's health and certain other special circumstances? How do you separate someone who wants to abort a baby because they made a mistake and aren't ready to be a parent with people like certain south asians who want a baby but don't want a female baby for cultural reasons and so they abort the baby and hope for a boy next time?

My point about choice is that the choice comes BEFORE the pregnancy.  You had the choice to use all sorts of proper birth control in the proper way, to obstain from sex altogether.  The idea that we have the inherent right to have sex for fun and to ejaculate into vaginas without repercussions is ridiculous, it's an idea that's only been around since the 1960's.  To have millions of growing humans killed because of inconvenience is pretty disgusting, selfish, and horribly irresponsible.
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2018, 09:01:57 pm »
I could not imagine growing up as a vulnerable child and having to fend for myself and being abused by people who were supposed to take care of me. 

At some point you have to consider not just life as an organism, but quality of life as well.

Fair enough point.  That's why I would want any children to have quality of life.  If babies outstripped adoption demand, I'd want orphanages to have very high quality care and stable well-trained longterm staff, which doesn't exist in many group homes in Canada which is a tragedy.

I'd have to be convinced that decent quality of life and loving guardian(s) was by any and all means unattainable in order to think about seeing abortion as ethical, which I'm not convinced yet.  I think more education and access to birth control is needed to avoid all of this in the first place.

Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

Offline Omni

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2018, 09:15:44 pm »
Fair enough point.  That's why I would want any children to have quality of life.  If babies outstripped adoption demand, I'd want orphanages to have very high quality care and stable well-trained longterm staff, which doesn't exist in many group homes in Canada which is a tragedy.

I'd have to be convinced that decent quality of life and loving guardian(s) was by any and all means unattainable in order to think about seeing abortion as ethical, which I'm not convinced yet.  I think more education and access to birth control is needed to avoid all of this in the first place.

Yeah we've been through all this **** before. The folks who supported abortion bans walked down the street with their banners and then completely ignored what happened to the unwanted/unsupported babies. There is a host of good reasons why abortion was decided to be a choice made between a woman and her doctor. even Harper wasn't dumb enough to try and roll back the clock on that issue.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2018, 09:16:32 pm »
This thread is **** stupid. Read a god damned book.
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