Author Topic: Why should abortion be allowed?  (Read 477 times)

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Offline MAGA Graham

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Why should abortion be allowed?
« on: April 15, 2018, 06:58:53 pm »
Tell me your reason why abortion should be allowed and/or why it's moral.  I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong.

If someone is able to convince me otherwise, i'll give huge kudos.
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2018, 07:42:03 pm »
Tell me your reason why abortion should be allowed and/or why it's moral.  I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong.

If someone is able to convince me otherwise, i'll give huge kudos.

I think it's an issue where convincing a person who believes in the opposing viewpoint would be very difficult indeed.

I believe abortion should be allowed because to forbid it would be to force a woman to undergo a pregnancy, with all the medical procedures and eventual issue that such entails, against her will.

Because I am pro-choice, I don't believe in questioning individual choices.  (Same as with assisted suicide, for me)
Time for bed said Zebedee...
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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2018, 07:51:49 pm »
Tell me your reason why abortion should be allowed and/or why it's moral.  I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong.

If someone is able to convince me otherwise, i'll give huge kudos.

Abortion is a completely normal and natural human activity.  It's been carried on since humans first walked the earth, as soon as they figured out that they could end pregnancy through the use of certain herbs or practices, although these methods tended to be unreliable.  The option for most of history was infanticide, and is still carried out in some parts of the world. 

In Biblical history, abortion was used both to determine infidelity and parentage:  if a woman was suspected of being adulterous, she was provided with concoctions believed to cause abortion and if she did not miscarry, it was assumed she was faithful and the child (if there was one) was her husband's.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5&version=NIV   (read from 5:11-29)

Child bearing, while being the woman's 'responsibility' due to biology has been given more importance as male validation: I can father kids; the kids are mine; the woman is mine.   Even in the passage above, the man had only to be 'jealous', and he could have his wife taken before the Priest and essentially forced to abort, if she was pregnant.  Note that these abortions were condoned by God, via the priests.

Some fun info on abortion throughout history.  https://www.bustle.com/articles/88626-9-ancient-abortion-methods-so-terrible-youll-be-even-more-grateful-for-the-right-to-choose

Patriarchal religions have always sought to control women's sexuality and their procreation; if you support a ban on abortion, or even reduced access to abortion, you are essentially supporting patriarchy, and patriarchal religions.  Although there are and have been no purely matriarchal societies, in pre-modern times - when women tended to live more separately from men within the community - abortion essentially an open secret.   Even in modern times when abortion was illegal and socially unacceptable, there was always a way - dangerous and shameful - but a woman or girl desperate enough could find it.

If abortion has been known throughout history, if it's something women (and men unwilling or not ready to be fathers) support, openly or secretly, banning it or disapproving of it will make no difference; the whole of human history has shown that.    Women, girls and newborns have died painful and slow deaths as a result of attempting unsafe abortions, whether due to lack of knowledge, or because laws or social disapproval have forced them to seek out substandard services.  Providing safe and effective abortion is better than condemning women to unsafe and unreliable methods, and it's preferable to leaving a child to die after it's born.   

That's why I support choice: it saves women and children from both patriarchy and death.  Personally however, if a woman came to me to ask my advice, my advice would be: I support whatever choice you make, but I think the best choice is to have the baby, and let it be adopted if you do not believe you can care for a child.   
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Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2018, 08:46:43 pm »
I think it's an issue where convincing a person who believes in the opposing viewpoint would be very difficult indeed.

I've gone back and forth being pro-choice and pro-life throughout my adult life. So I can be swayed. I've thought about it a lot, and have come to the conclusion through much logical reasoning why it shouldn't be allowed and why it's morally wrong.  But if logical reasoning can be used to persuade me to change my mind again and argue successfully as to why my opinions are logically and morally wrong, I'm all ears.  It won't be easy though.

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I believe abortion should be allowed because to forbid it would be to force a woman to undergo a pregnancy, with all the medical procedures and eventual issue that such entails, against her will.

I get that point, it's an important point and a very compelling argument.  However, what i'll counter is that she should have thought of that before she willfully undertook actions that made her become pregnant.  Her actions (along with the actions of the man) led to her becoming pregnant.  Now she has created a human life by her own willful actions (& inactions).  How is killing a human life an acceptable form of birth control?  The time for proper use of birth control was BEFORE the pregnancy.

The pregnancy isn't against her will, it was her will that made it become so in the first place.  Now there's an innocent baby human life involved, the baby never asked to be created, it's a slave to the mother, 100% wholly dependent on her, creation and death.  Why should the baby be killed without its consent, against its will, when its creation is 100% entirely the responsibility of the mother (and father)?  All because the mom and dad wanted to have fun sexy times and didn't live up to their responsibility to use proper precautions.  It's a horribly selfish argument.

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Because I am pro-choice, I don't believe in questioning individual choices.

Abortion rights across the world means the deaths of millions of unborn babies.  It's a slaughter, a mass genocide of unwanted babies.  When your choices affect another living human life because of your bad choices that resulted in pregnancy you could have prevented, it's not just about the rights of the mother.  With great power comes great responsibility.  If the woman screws up, time to adult-up, take responsibility for your actions and mistake, put up with 9 months of inconvenience, and then give the baby up for adoption if you don't the baby. Lots of gay couples etc looking.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:28:23 pm by Poonlight Graham »
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

Offline Omni

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2018, 09:02:42 pm »
Tell me your reason why abortion should be allowed and/or why it's moral.  I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong.

If someone is able to convince me otherwise, i'll give huge kudos.

Women will get abortions whether it's "allowed" or not. They did so prior to the change in Canadian law and many of them died obtaining illegal abortions. If you outlaw it again, you will simply knock us back into those dark ages. Birth control is a much better approach I totally agree. (Boy you really have bounced into the right wing ring I see)
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Offline TimG

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2018, 09:05:44 pm »
Wrong question.

The default is to allow people freedom. If that is to be restricted then there must be justification.

So why should abortion be restricted?
I can't see any reason other than the metaphysical beliefs of some individuals.
That is not good enough to justify restrictions.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2018, 09:12:57 pm »
I am not against abortions like PG but I just want to address your point, dia.

I get that historically women have jeopardized their lives to have abortions but we now live in a time where birth control is readily available.  When I was younger they wouldn't insert IUD unless you'd already had kids and if hormone pills didn't mesh well with your system you were pretty SOL, but these days they do IUD's for any age.  There are lots of different ways to avoid getting pregnant.

As awful as the history of abortion has been, does it even have resonance in the modern western world?
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 09:17:40 pm »
Poonlight Graham, do you feel there are enough people out there to adopt every unwanted baby? 

If no, then you could consider not just the life of a fetus, but the life of an unwanted baby in this world.  Many studies show that babies in orphanages grow up with many personality disorders because touch and security is very important for infants.

Of course we are way too frivolous about abortion and I don't like it either, but banning it wouldn't necessarily help the lives that we're supposed to be saving.


Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2018, 09:26:57 pm »
Abortion is a completely normal and natural human activity.  It's been carried on since humans first walked the earth.

****, slavery, murder, and child molestation is a completely normal and natural human activity.  It's been carried on since humans first walked the earth.

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The option for most of history was infanticide, and is still carried out in some parts of the world. 

Baby murder while outside the womb, as opposed to baby murder while inside the womb.

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In Biblical history, abortion was used both to determine infidelity and parentage:  if a woman was suspected of being adulterous, she was provided with concoctions believed to cause abortion and if she did not miscarry, it was assumed she was faithful and the child (if there was one) was her husband's https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5&version=NIV   (read from 5:11-29)

These people sound crazy.

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Child bearing, while being the woman's 'responsibility' due to biology has been given more importance as male validation: I can father kids; the kids are mine; the woman is mine.   Even in the passage above, the man had only to be 'jealous', and he could have his wife taken before the Priest and essentially forced to abort, if she was pregnant.  Note that these abortions were condoned by God, via the priests.

This sounds like a disgusting nightmare obviously. I feel bad for the women and children.

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Patriarchal religions have always sought to control women's sexuality and their procreation; if you support a ban on abortion, or even reduced access to abortion, you are essentially supporting patriarchy, and patriarchal religions.

This makes no logical sense whatsoever.  I'm 100% completely against patriarchy and I dislike most religions. This feeds into the common argument of: "Pro-lifers/Christians/Men need to stop trying to control women's bodies".  Nobody gives a rat about a woman's boobs, their neck, their legs, their clitoris, their uterus or any other part of their bodies.  Go amputate both your arms, get a bad boob job, dye your hair green, remove one eyeball, and get a tattoo of a naked Whoopi Goldberg across your back for all I care.  What I actually care about is the little innocent human being growing inside a woman's body that the woman created through their own willful actions but refuse to take any responsibility for except to murder it.  (yes, men involved too, but still ultimately the woman's choice too except in cases of ****).

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Although there are and have been no purely matriarchal societies, in pre-modern times - when women tended to live more separately from men within the community - abortion essentially an open secret.   Even in modern times when abortion was illegal and socially unacceptable, there was always a way - dangerous and shameful - but a woman or girl desperate enough could find it. 

If abortion has been known throughout history, if it's something women (and men unwilling or not ready to be fathers) support, openly or secretly, banning it or disapproving of it will make no difference; the whole of human history has shown that.    Women, girls and newborns have died painful and slow deaths as a result of attempting unsafe abortions, whether due to lack of knowledge, or because laws or social disapproval have forced them to seek out substandard services.  Providing safe and effective abortion is better than condemning women to unsafe and unreliable methods, and it's preferable to leaving a child to die after it's born.


If somebody is so cowardly and irresponsible that they'd rather kill a growing human baby that they created through their own willful actions using unsafe methods than to muster the courage to tell their parents or partner that they're pregnant and/or to suck it up for 9 months & give it up for adoption then these women needs to grow up and learn to take some responsibility for their actions. If the woman dies or becomes sick from unsafe underground methods, it's 100% their fault, it sucks & I empathize but I can't feel sorry for them, because killing an innocent human life due to fear and inconvenience is disgusting and morally reprehensible.

If the mother leaves the child to die after birth, that's also disgusting and the mother should be arrested for murder.

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Personally however, if a woman came to me to ask my advice, my advice would be: I support whatever choice you make, but I think the best choice is to have the baby, and let it be adopted if you do not believe you can care for a child.

Well I'm glad we agree on at least that.  The difference is that I think that should be the only choice post-pregnancy (keep or adopt away).  I'm pro-choice in that all of the choices occur before the pregnancy.  There's no mulligans when creating human life.  Killing the baby should not be a choice. 
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2018, 09:33:24 pm »
Women will get abortions whether it's "allowed" or not. They did so prior to the change in Canadian law and many of them died obtaining illegal abortions. If you outlaw it again, you will simply knock us back into those dark ages. Birth control is a much better approach I totally agree.

Men will **** women and adults will molest children whether it's allowed or not.

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(Boy you really have bounced into the right wing ring I see)

On some things.  Before, I would scoff at the rightwing and not really consider some of their arguments.  Now I actually take the time to listen to them, some of it is still crazy nonsense but some is compelling.
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2018, 09:37:04 pm »
Wrong question.

The default is to allow people freedom. If that is to be restricted then there must be justification.

So why should abortion be restricted?
I can't see any reason other than the metaphysical beliefs of some individuals.
That is not good enough to justify restrictions.

I agree with your first premise.  But what freedom are you allowing the unborn child?  Do they have no rights, to their own body or otherwise? And the woman's rights unrestricted?  Read my other responses, you'll see my reasoning as it's revealed.
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 09:38:36 pm »
So far i've enjoyed the debating, keep it coming!
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.

Offline TimG

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2018, 09:41:08 pm »
I agree with your first premise.  But what freedom are you allowing the unborn child?  Do they have no rights, to their own body or otherwise? And the woman's rights unrestricted?  Read my other responses, you'll see my reasoning as it's revealed.
The question of whether a fetus is a person worthy of rights is purely metaphysical and has no utilitarian basis (i.e. public safety/health etc). People who wish to believe that should be be free to apply that principle to their own lives, however, without a utilitarian justification these beliefs should not be imposed on others.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2018, 09:41:48 pm »
I've gone back and forth being pro-choice and pro-life throughout my adult life. So I can be swayed. I've thought about it a lot, and have come to the conclusion through much logical reasoning why it shouldn't be allowed and why it's morally wrong.  But if logical reasoning can be used to persuade me to change my mind again and argue successfully as to why my opinions are logically and morally wrong, I'm all ears.  It won't be easy though.

I don't know if I've ever been pro life.  I think for much of my life I didn't have an opinion.  When I formed one it was pro-choice.  It's because I'm pro-choice in pretty much anything, and I don't hold life to be sacred.

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I get that point, it's an important point and a very compelling argument.  However, what i'll counter is that she should have thought of that before she willfully undertook actions that made her become pregnant.  Her actions (along with the actions of the man) led to her becoming pregnant.  Now she has created a human life by her own willful actions (& inactions).  How is killing a human life an acceptable form of birth control?  The time for proper use of birth control was BEFORE the pregnancy.

The pregnancy isn't against her will, it was her will that made it become so in the first place.  Now there's an innocent baby human life involved, the baby never asked to be created, it's a slave to the mother, 100% wholly dependent on her, creation and death.  Why should the baby be killed without its consent, against its will, when its creation is 100% entirely the responsibility of the mother (and father)?  All because the mom and dad wanted to have fun sexy times and didn't live up to their responsibility to use proper precautions.  It's a horribly selfish argument.

I don't think you can separate those who willfully decided to use abortion as birth control and those who made a mistake with their birth control.  Then there are those who planned on a child, and then decided against it, for whatever reason.  It's like I said, being pro choice, I don't want to start vetting choices.

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Abortion rights across the world means the deaths of millions of unborn babies.  It's a slaughter, a mass genocide of unwanted babies.  When your choices affect another living human life because of your bad choices that resulted in pregnancy you could have prevented, it's not just about the rights of the mother.  With great power comes great responsibility.  If the woman screws up, time to adult-up, take responsibility for your actions and mistake, put up with 9 months of inconvenience, and then give the baby up for adoption if you don't the baby. Lots of gay couples etc looking.


I think that would be a good, unselfish thing for a mother to do, but I believe she must have the choice.  Where I differ from you in another way is the notion of fetus as baby.  I'm not one who believes life begins at conception.  I have no strong views as to where it does begin, but for me it would have to be at least once a fetus is viable outside the womb. 
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MAGA Graham

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Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2018, 09:49:51 pm »
1. Poonlight Graham, do you feel there are enough people out there to adopt every unwanted baby?

2. If no, then you could consider not just the life of a fetus, but the life of an unwanted baby in this world.  Many studies show that babies in orphanages grow up with many personality disorders because touch and security is very important for infants.

Of course we are way too frivolous about abortion and I don't like it either, but banning it wouldn't necessarily help the lives that we're supposed to be saving.

1. I honestly don't know those facts.  Would be good to know though, so good question.

2. Here's the thing...that's a great point, I'd feel bad for the kids.  But having a not-so-great upbringing is better than having no upbringing at all.  If your mom had the choice to put you in an orphanage or abort you, which would you have preferred?  Do all those residential school victims want to die, or to live?  All choice emphasis by many pro-choice advocates is on the mother, but no regard to the baby who has no power whether they are created, able to live, or their killed via abortion.  This will sound macabre (but so discussing killing unborn babies)...but even if a child has to go into an orphanage and may not have a great upbringing, if they're unhappy and they don't want to live, they can commit suicide to end their own life, instead of having others make that decision for them.  There's lots of unhappy orphans and kids in foster homes etc, some who commit suicide or live on the stret, but also many who choose live, and have a life worth living.  Why not live them that chance?  Why not reform the child welfare system in general so these kids have love somewhere?
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.