Author Topic: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane  (Read 133 times)

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2018, 08:19:56 pm »
In natural selection terms, intelligence and planning are now negative traits that are actively weeded out of the gene pool by causing birth-rates.

This is damned frightening.

On the positive, this will help slow global population growth.  I'm sure decades from now there will be a time when most people in the world use contraceptives.  I wonder if global population will eventually start to decrease at some point...

Personally I think humanity's ultimate purpose will end up being the creation of super-intelligent self-improving AI that will end up far surpassing us, probably by the end of the century, so all is kind of moot.  That's even more frightening.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2018, 11:22:09 pm »
Uh... yeah. I hadn't gotten that, but it makes sense. We briefly discussed this a few weeks back, talking about how to increase the birth rate, and I pointed out poor people have more kids than rich people. So money isn't the issue. So what IS the issue?

If the poor are made up, as they are likely to be, of people with lower intellectual capabilities, drive, motivation, whatever, and they're having a lot of kids... and the more economically successful, which aside from those who inherit wealth would logically be made up of the best, the brightest, are too busy to have kids, then what's that going to do to our future?

It was once simply assumed, culturally, that marriage and children was everyone's destiny. It was why you were here. Now personal enjoyment is why we're here, and kids get in the way of that. It's harder to get promoted if you have to go home to take care of the kids, and taking that extra week in the Bahamas becomes less affordable. Plus you might have to settle for a Toyota rather than that Volvo you want. So what would motivate people to have more kids, if it's not a money thing?


If I felt some sense of duty to the human race as a whole, then obviously it would greatly benefit the species for me to contribute my extraordinary genetic gifts to the gene pool.

But ... I mean, is that the point?  If it was necessary for me to have 4 or 6 or 8 kids to make sure that my tribe survived to the next generation, then yeah, I could understand feeling a little pressure to start having babies.  But there are 7+ billion people here right now, there might be twice that many before I die, and the species will probably carry on just fine without me.   The future might not have my beautiful blue eyes, flawless milk-like complexion, and flaxen hair to appreciate in an aesthetic sense, but I'm sure that they'll ... well, things will be ok without me in the gene pool.   The world doesn't need 14 billion humans, or even 7 billion for that matter.

The future will take care of itself one way or another.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2018, 11:43:29 pm »
A rose by any other name is still a rose and the entire system of political economy in the West is based on the Protestant "narrative." So long as we are all bound to that system, the "white Protestant male" narrative is still the universal. Even this article is predicated on the disjunction between white male Protestant against what it's not. The rest are still the Other and our culture, government, laws, economic system, in a word our social institutions are universalized aspects of the Protestant narrative. Breaking that narrative would literally involve a radical re-organization of social reality.

When I read "Protestant" in the American context, I'm thinking less "Calvinist work ethic, Martin Luther reformation" type Protestantism  and more "Supply-Side Jesus, White Evangelicals for Trump!" type Protestantism.

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2018, 07:16:09 am »
When I read "Protestant" in the American context, I'm thinking less "Calvinist work ethic, Martin Luther reformation" type Protestantism  and more "Supply-Side Jesus, White Evangelicals for Trump!" type Protestantism.

 -k
It's all part of the same package. Even those without religious mores are living with the spectre of the Calvinist work ethic. That's why people in America, far more than Canada, are putting in abhorrent work hours with little benefit. It's a moral virtue there and even without religiosity it remains a cultural virtue.

The flip side to this is that those who struggle to survive, due to structural forces that are well beyond their control mostly, are cast aside in America, again as a result of that Spectre of Calvinist asceticism. They're immoral because if they would just be more ascetic (stop spending money on such "profligate" things as an internet connection, coffee, or clothing; stop living alone and move into a boarding house; stop living near your friends and family and move to where the jobs are) then they would be more successful. Success, of course, having nothing to do with happiness and health, and everything to do with wealth. Amassing wealth shows that you have the grace of God and live an ascetic life.

Strip away God from that and you still have a moral ethic based on Protestantism that drives American culture to abhor the poor, treat them as immoral sinners, and to praise the wealthy as though they are saints, regardless of their personal character nor their means for attaining that wealth. American culture is fundamentally Protestant culture stripped of its original religious roots. It's not even remotely waning. It's demonstrated every day through popular media and in the political sphere.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2018, 12:12:21 pm »

If I felt some sense of duty to the human race as a whole, then obviously it would greatly benefit the species for me to contribute my extraordinary genetic gifts to the gene pool.

But your genetics ought to be reproduced, if they're good ones. The human race would be improved by more smart blondes, wouldn't it?

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But ... I mean, is that the point?  If it was necessary for me to have 4 or 6 or 8 kids to make sure that my tribe survived to the next generation, then yeah, I could understand feeling a little pressure to start having babies.  But there are 7+ billion people here right now, there might be twice that many before I die, and the species will probably carry on just fine without me.

But in which direction will the species go if its mostly the dumb people who procreate? Will the future be filled with a downward spiral as the median IQ travels downward year by year by decade by century?

Plus, if you want to talk about tribes, will the future be filled with a worldwide caliphate as Muslims continue to have 4-5 kids apiece while Christianity fades away, too busy having fun to procreate?

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2018, 12:15:08 pm »
It's all part of the same package. Even those without religious mores are living with the spectre of the Calvinist work ethic. That's why people in America, far more than Canada, are putting in abhorrent work hours with little benefit.

Do the Chinese suffer from a Calvinist work ethic? Because they work longer hours. I'm pretty sure people from Indonesia to Pakistan put in awfully long hours too.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 12:31:14 pm »
Chinese, Indonesian, and Pakistanis do not have the social capital to modify American culture. You're talking about individual groups and I'm talking about the dominant culture in the United States that values wealth by literally any means.

Offline Boges

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2018, 12:40:00 pm »
Plus, if you want to talk about tribes, will the future be filled with a worldwide caliphate as Muslims continue to have 4-5 kids apiece while Christianity fades away, too busy having fun to procreate?

The whole point is that when the come here and experience a quality of living that isn't made better by dealing with a rug rat to take care of, they won't have 4-5 kids either.

Being able to take nice vacations and eat good food are more appealing than populating the world with more fundamentalists. Regardless of religion or ethnicity.

And the point was made earlier that there are plenty poor white "Chreeestians" that fulfill the procreating needs for white people.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 12:45:17 pm by Boges »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2018, 02:24:30 pm »
Chinese, Indonesian, and Pakistanis do not have the social capital to modify American culture. You're talking about individual groups and I'm talking about the dominant culture in the United States that values wealth by literally any means.

If they valued wealth by any means there'd be a lot less social welfare programs. I grant you that the uber rich, some of them, particularly those like the Koch brothers, certainly seem to fall into the category you're describing. I do not think they constitute a dominant culture. Most people work as hard as they think they need to to acquire the lifestyle they can. It's no different in China or India or Malaysia.

And the Chinese who come to America don't work harder, but less hard. They're still very ... focused... on acquiring the skillset and education to make their labor highly valuable, though, and they didn't acquire that need through absorbing US culture.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2018, 02:27:52 pm »
The whole point is that when the come here and experience a quality of living that isn't made better by dealing with a rug rat to take care of, they won't have 4-5 kids either.

Being able to take nice vacations and eat good food are more appealing than populating the world with more fundamentalists. Regardless of religion or ethnicity.

And the point was made earlier that there are plenty poor white "Chreeestians" that fulfill the procreating needs for white people.

That wasn't my point, though. The birth rate in the Muslim world is massively higher than anywhere else. As the number of intelligent and educated 'white people' who are those most closely supportive of western civilization and culture decline will that western civilization decline, too, to be taken over by the growing Muslim world?

Btw, the most devout Christian populations in the US are Blacks and Hispanics. They are also the groups that are growing the most in the US.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2018, 05:48:40 pm »
The future will take care of itself one way or another.

Not always.  Having a kid or 2 and treating them well is also a good insurance policy when you're old so you have someone there to take care of you & act in your interests.  Though sometimes ungrateful children put their parents in a retirement home or longterm care and rarely visit.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.