Author Topic: Water Wars in Arizona  (Read 274 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2018, 12:06:02 pm »
3) is by far the fairest system because...

The rich win... like always.

Offline the_squid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2018, 02:06:16 pm »
To me privatized/water as a commodity means that it is administered privately for a profit.  That is totally different than charging fees to residential/commercial users that recovers the costs of the infrastructure to get it to our taps safely.

The public water sources should never be controlled privately.  It should always be regarded as a necessity run by a public utility that covers the costs through useage fees/taxes.  Things like golf courses should be charged at a higher rate, since they are using the public water to make a profit for a completely nonessential pastime.

Of course, we have the bottled water industry, which is a different kettle of fish again.   They should be charged appropriately for taking water out of the pool of water available to the public and it should only happen if it doesn't have any detrimental impacts to the availability of public water.
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2018, 03:15:53 pm »
To me privatized/water as a commodity means that it is administered privately for a profit.
Makes no difference who administers the water they will always seek a profit. The only difference between public and private is with public the profits are given to unions where the taxpayer takes all the risk and provides all of the capital.

The public water sources should never be controlled privately.
Water has to be publicly owned but the infrastructure for distributing the water does not necessarily require public ownership. It comes down to a question of who can provide the best service.


Offline the_squid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2018, 03:29:16 pm »
Quote
The only difference between public and private is with public the profits are given to unions ...

Please provide citations for this and how it relates to water infrastructure and distribution.

On the face of it, this comment seems like a hyperbolic, ignorant comment.  But I will keep an open mind until you provide your evidence.


Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7931
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2018, 03:45:25 pm »
They're commodified because as a society we've allowed these things to be commodified.

How do you use water without commodification?

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2018, 04:06:59 pm »
Please provide citations for this and how it relates to water infrastructure and distribution.
I was refuting your assertion that government run entities are "non-profit". They are always for profit but the beneficiaries change. In the case, of government run monopolies the public sector unions are very good at extracting disproportionate benefits for their members at the expense of everyone who is forced to pay for the service. Are you really going to try an argue that government workers do not cost more than non-government workers?


Offline the_squid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2018, 04:16:54 pm »
I was refuting your assertion that government run entities are "non-profit". They are always for profit but the beneficiaries change. In the case, of government run monopolies the public sector unions are very good at extracting disproportionate benefits for their members at the expense of everyone who is forced to pay for the service.

So it's your contention that government is charging citizens a market price for water services that will maximize profits/returns?  And these profits are going to unions? 

You don't even understand what the terms "for profit" and "non profit" are even referring to in the case of government services.  This is a really ignorant position that seems to stem from some anti-union stance that really has nothing to do with this topic. 


Quote
Are you really going to try an argue that government workers do not cost more than non-government workers?

If the private sector could maximize profits from selling water to citizens, I would imagine those workers would be paid pretty damn well....   like tarsands well... 

I also certainly don't want a private company trying to maximize profits by cutting back on...  oh, water purification....   

...or training for workers...   let's skip the "how to make water drinkable" course for our workers...   we can save thousands!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 04:20:45 pm by the_squid »
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2018, 04:37:54 pm »
You don't even understand what the terms "for profit" and "non profit" are even referring to in the case of government services.
You don't understand that the 'profit/non-profit' distinction is meaningless semantics. If a service is provided people are paid. These people make a profit off the provision of that service. Whether the organization that provides the capital and takes the risk takes a share of the revenue does not change this.

What we want are organizations that are structured in a way to maximize public benefits. If private operators are involved the incentives must be set up in a way to ensure this.
I also certainly don't want a private company trying to maximize profits by cutting back on...  oh, water purification....
You mean like in Walkerton. oops, those guys were public servants who got and kept their jobs because of "seniority" rules.


 

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2018, 04:54:15 pm »
I am baffled as to why the discussion is focused around infrastructure, when that has almost nothing to do with the groundwater situation.
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline the_squid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2018, 05:09:46 pm »
You don't understand that the 'profit/non-profit' distinction is meaningless semantics. If a service is provided people are paid. These people make a profit off the provision of that service. Whether the organization that provides the capital and takes the risk takes a share of the revenue does not change this.

Good lord TimG!   Nonprofit doesn't mean no one is paid...   ::)     Part of the costs to provide the service are wages....  Are you seriously this ignorant about profit vs nonprofit?

I noticed you ignored my question about whether you thought the public utility in charge of water is trying to maximize profits.   Do I need to explain what maximize means?

Quote
What we want are organizations that are structured in a way to maximize public benefits. If private operators are involved the incentives must be set up in a way to ensure this. You mean like in Walkerton. oops, those guys were public servants who got and kept their jobs because of "seniority" rules.
 

Walkerton is an excellent example of how a Provincial gov't lack of regulation and government oversight lead to a disaster.  Good example.
Like Like x 1 Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2018, 05:23:05 pm »
Part of the costs to provide the service are wages....  Are you seriously this ignorant about profit vs nonprofit?
And wages are profits earned by workers. Are you seriously this ignorant about what profits are? There is no difference between the profit earned by a business owner and the profit earned by a worker. Both are compensation for time and money invested.

I noticed you ignored my question about whether you thought the public utility in charge of water is trying to maximize profits.   Do I need to explain what maximize means?
Maximizing profits is not inherently bad if it leads to delivering better service at lower cost. The problem with publicly run organizations is bad incentives lead to worse service and higher costs. Whether the organization is public or private, the right incentives and regulations need to be in place.
Dumb Dumb x 3 View List

Offline Omni

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8217
Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2018, 07:06:19 pm »
You don't understand that the 'profit/non-profit' distinction is meaningless semantics. If a service is provided people are paid. These people make a profit off the provision of that service. Whether the organization that provides the capital and takes the risk takes a share of the revenue does not change this.

What we want are organizations that are structured in a way to maximize public benefits. If private operators are involved the incentives must be set up in a way to ensure this. You mean like in Walkerton. oops, those guys were public servants who got and kept their jobs because of "seniority" rules.


 

Good lord Tim, I'm glad you're not at the helm or we'd have as f'ed up a health care system as the US has since you don't seem to get the profit/non-profit difference. Do you think because a doctor gets paid well that he/she are paid out of profits?
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List