Author Topic: Water Wars in Arizona  (Read 455 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2018, 06:07:20 am »
Can't, wants money.  Maybe I am not the only one.

oh jeebz... I forgot about paywall.  Yes I subscribe to NYT :(

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2018, 06:08:52 am »
Quote
Over the previous decade, the price per pound for pecans and pistachios has roughly doubled, driven largely by demand from China. But those nuts, like almonds, require an exorbitant amount of both water and capital to farm. An average orchard can cost more than $20,000 an acre to clear and raise, in part because the trees don’t bear nuts for five to 12 years. In the valley, where land is a fraction of the price of California’s, the principal cost for nut farmers is water. During sapling years, trees consume only about two acre-feet of water a year but grow to require as much as six acre-feet when mature, among the highest of any crop. To ensure a consistent supply of water from an aquifer already plummeting deeper every year, farmers often drill a well every 160 acres, each to a depth of at least 1,000 or 1,500 feet. One farming conglomerate, expanding from Minnesota, bought or drilled 293 wells, some pumping more than 2,000 gallons a minute.

Suddenly, the very qualities of the valley that had nurtured generations of family agriculture — its cheap ground, its lack of groundwater regulation — seemed to threaten its existence. In the span of a few months, Intent to Drill notices increased almost fivefold, as Chase Farms and the National Pecan Company, two of the largest pecan growers in the world, bought and consolidated several thousand-acre farms. Soon, tree-nut orchards blanketed about 20,000 acres, forcing the state to put a six-month moratorium on new farms. (Today, there are 35,000 acres of tree nuts in the valley.) The groundwater had created, as local farmer Ted Haas put it, “a gold-rush mentality,” which in the next five years yielded a dozen new vineyards, as well as 20,000 acres of corn and wheat and 16 greenhouses for NatureSweet Tomatoes, the country’s largest producer. As yearly water consumption doubled, the sands and gravels within the aquifer began to shift and collapse, causing the elevation to sink more than 15 feet in places. About 50 miles of earth fissures ruptured the surface of the valley, even splitting a major highway in half.

To Seitz, the farmers’ arrival seemed like a blessing at first. “There’s more outside money moving in, and it’s great for the area,” he said. “That’s good for the John Deere dealership. I’m in the crop-consulting business — if I sell product, it’s good for me. It’s good for irrigation companies.” But a few weeks after the community meeting, Seitz sent a concerned email to 15 of his clients and business partners. “We need to get together and figure this water thing out,” he wrote. As more farms arrived and more families lost water, Seitz had come to realize that the boom was “good for the area on one hand, but we’re still shooting ourselves in the foot.” Most of the recipients were, like Seitz, prominent local farmers who owned modest, family-run acreages with long legacies in the valley.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2018, 06:11:15 am »
Because the "government=bad" idea is so entrenched, they can't get it together to push for some kind of sane management.  Meanwhile the lobbyists (they don't really think government is bad as long as they do what they say) are still getting new developments approved.

This, to me, is the flip side of deficits increasing because no one is paying attention to the economy.  Government is most at risk after a period of success, when people stop paying attention and it gets corrupt.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2018, 11:51:12 am »
Because the "government=bad" idea is so entrenched, they can't get it together to push for some kind of sane management.  Meanwhile the lobbyists (they don't really think government is bad as long as they do what they say) are still getting new developments approved.

And I do not care in the least. The more farms and developments the better. Not just in Arizona but the in the desert of California. I also don't care that Las Vegas continues to grow.

One day in the not that distant future, they will all run out of water, and then all those millions of people will bleat about 'how did this happen!?" and I will laugh at them as they abandon their homes and pools and head to cooler climates where there is water, leaving behind glorious empty cities in the desert and all the abandoned farms that used to surround them.

If you ignore the realities and don't vote, or continue to vote for people who ignore the realities, then you get what you deserve.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2018, 03:32:59 pm »
So pistachio farmers and golf courses should be allowed free access to water?

Can't put a price on water, just like you can't put a price on carbon. That is anti-capitalist.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2018, 04:59:43 pm »
Can't put a price on water, just like you can't put a price on carbon. That is anti-capitalist.

Water should be a right....   for the individual.  For a corporation, they need to pay the true price of the resource.


Offline wilber

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2018, 05:07:08 pm »
Water should be a right....   for the individual.  For a corporation, they need to pay the true price of the resource.

A clean safe supply of water costs money, it just doesn’t appear out of your tap. You will pay for it one way or another.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2018, 05:34:48 pm »
READ THE DAMN ARTICLE

You post really long articles.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2018, 05:52:37 pm »

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2018, 06:08:36 pm »
A clean safe supply of water costs money, it just doesn’t appear out of your tap. You will pay for it one way or another.

No ****....    ::)


Offline wilber

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2018, 07:23:30 pm »
No ****....    ::)

I don’t think society has an obligation to provide people with water regardless of where they decide to live, any more than it is to provide electricity or gas.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline TimG

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2018, 07:26:52 pm »
Water should be a right....   for the individual.  For a corporation, they need to pay the true price of the resource.
First, no one has a right to compel other people to give them free stuff so no one has a right to water piped to their home. Second, the distinction between corporations and people is not meaningful. What matters is consumption. People and corporations should pay for that. If a corporations can't afford it they should not be indirectly subsidized with free water.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2018, 08:14:15 pm »
I don’t think society has an obligation to provide people with water regardless of where they decide to live, any more than it is to provide electricity or gas.

So you'd be fine with privatizing water resources then?  Like gas and electricity?

Offline wilber

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2018, 08:34:21 pm »
So you'd be fine with privatizing water resources then?  Like gas and electricity?

I don’t see it as one or the other. In BC, electricity is provided by a crown corporation, gas by a provincially regulated private company and water by the city.

If you want to live a couple of miles off the existing grid, Hydro is not going to run lines just for you at their expense. The same should apply to water.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

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Re: Water Wars in Arizona
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2018, 09:39:21 pm »
I don’t see it as one or the other. In BC, electricity is provided by a crown corporation, gas by a provincially regulated private company and water by the city.

In 2016, BC also implemented a groundwater licensing requirement, a change for commercial operations that previously could simply drill a well for their water needs.  Domestic households are still able to have free wells, but even small commercial operations and hobby farms now have to licence and pay for the water they take from aquifers.   Domestic users are encouraged to register their wells, though they are considered to have a "right" to water.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/air-land-water/water/water-licensing-rights/water-licences-approvals/new-requirements-for-groundwater-users