Author Topic: Using the word Jew and Isael interchangeably in references  (Read 24 times)

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Offline Rue

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Using the word Jew and Isael interchangeably in references
« on: April 30, 2019, 10:12:04 am »
In a thread on Faith Goldy in the Canadian section I challenged Omni for gratuitously using a reference to Jews when discussing relations between the US, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Iran.

I challenged his use of the term "Jews" in the context he used it because ironically that thread was about criticizing Faith Goldy for her extreme right wing views but then diverted to a not so subtle attempt to infer all right wingers think like her and Sheer supports her. In fact Omni has repeatedly accused me of supporting her because I stated I would vote for Sheer before I would vote for Trudeau.

My point was to show how the language Omni and other self identified progressive leftists in this board  use is not  so different than the "right wing" they define and claim to be moral inferior.

In fact the response is more properly placed on a separate thread so it does not detract from the original thread.

First off, the term "Hebrew" has two meanings depending on the context in which it is used: I- a member of or a descendant from the Levantines or Nilotic peoples, and this could include Indo-Asian (Indian, Chinese,African(South Nilotic), Felashie, Semitic, (today also called (Ashkenazi,(not from Araboc speaking countries)Tsfardic (from Arabic speaking countries)) Hamitic, Kushitic, Kurdish, or Druze peoples from the era and belief of Abraham or who continue to follow his teachings or the teachings of Judaism; or II- the language. In regards to the language there are two sub-types, modern and ancient or Biblical. These two are not synonomous.

"Israel" is  defined in 3 ways depending on its contextual reference: I- the Biblic reference: for the actual name of the Patriarch Jacob and then his descendants through his 12 sons (tribes; II- an inaccurate name into  describe a citizen and inhabitant of what we know as "Judea", or "Land of Judah" during the Classical era and the post-Babylonian wars against Assyrians, Hamanites, Syrian-Greeks and Romans, in alliance with  allies from Indo-Hebrew Parthia [Kurdistan and India] and Afro-Hebrew Kush [Nubia and Ethiopia]- formally trained Biblical scholars or academically trained theology students and professors  would not use the term Israeli in this sense they would use the term Hebrew; III-the term used to describe ciizens of the state of Israel since its existence in 1949 and this could include Christians, Druze, Beduin Arabs, Muslims, Bahaiis, Bhuddists, people who follow Judaism as a religion ranging from Ultra-Orthodox on one side of the spectrum to non formal on the other end-it could also refer to citizens of Israel who identify as Jews since their parents of people in their family practiced or practice Judaism as a religion but they themselves to do not formally.

The word "Jew" is actually a word many Jews will not use to describe ourselves the same way black people do not want to be called “negroes” or why gay people started using the word gay and not homosexual to describe homosexual men.Because we Jews have been the target of the word “Jew” used in a negative context so often, we prefer people use the word “Jewish”. We often encounter gentile who uses the word incorrectly or interchangeably with Israeli citizens. In this maner it makes every discussion on Israel a discussion about all Jews on the planet each and every time Israel is discussed. The actual origin of the word Jew came about  erroneously from the words:  "Juda", "Jud-ean" and "Iud-ean". Not every one from Judea or for that matter Somaria the two ancient kingdoms which today are where moden Israel is were Jewish. In actual fact gentiles continually confuse the term Jew because they project the definition they use for Christian or Muslim on Jews which is inaccurate. The term Jew could mean depending on the context of  its use to mean: I- the collective of people descended from the Hebrews who lived in Biblical Israel or in Judea and Somaria or in the Arabian Peninsula or anywhere in the world who are descended from the Hebrews; II-people who are members of and follow the Jewish religion. Not all Jews practice Judaism formally or informally.

You can be a Jew and be deeply religious or an atheist. You can be a Jew and incorporate Bhuddist or Eastern thought processes from Taoism into the way you practice it. You can not be a Christian or Muslim and Jew at the same time.

It can be confusing for gentiles to grasp the definition because it can refer to our common collective identity and in that sense we Jews define ourselves no different than gays. We share a common identity based from being in exile and constantly on the outside looking inside the society mainstream of  the day. Christian or Muslim laws defined us as inferior and not worthy of the same legal rights. If we did not make our identities invisible we became targets for hatred. Christianity taught we were the descendants of the killers of Christ destined to go to hell if we did not all collectively apologize and convert. In Islam we are defined as dhimmi, people who follow a false prophet and by inherent nature are evil and must be defeated in a world war to rid us from the planet.Like the gay collective we use music, art, dry humour, literature to express our beliefs and shared pain.

The term could also also be used as a cultural definition to describe types of food, art, music.

Gamel Abnel Nasser redefined the people of Arabic speaking nations of the Middle East to be called “Arabs” the same way he saw we Jewish people refer to ourselves. Up until his redefinition Arab only meant a descendant of the peoples from the Arabian Peninsula who could have been Jews, Christians or Muslims. However the true sense of the term Arab today is used to describe the Beduin peoples, the last remaining peoples of the Arabian Peninsula living off of the animistic rules of the land that would have predated the Abrahamic religions.

In most discussions on Israel the term “Jews” is gratuitously thrown in as an interchangeable word to describe the government of Israel, all Israelis. It is ironic because often the people who use the word this way are anti Israeli but would be the first to deny they are anti-semitic claiming not all Jews are Israelis and not all Jews are Zionists and yet they perpetuate the interchangeable use of  the term Jew and Israeli.

Why do I challenge it? Because mainstream left wing critics of the state of Israel engage in this exercise. They see themselves as morally superior to ultra right wing bigots who use the same device. So I point out they are no better. In fact its usually he mainstream right, often Christian, who support
Israel as a nation and do not assume all Jews are Israeli or that only Jews support Israel’s existence. In fact the supposed right wing consists of some of the most loyal defenders of Jews as a religious group or of Israel as a country.

It is important I point that out because the historic context of Jews as much as it is from our being persecuted by Christians and Jews is from our struggle to find peace and mutual respect and co-existence with non Jews which the Christian community mainstream which is happening and most importantly to remember the righteous gentiles who remained true to their religions and died or put their lives on the line so that Jews could live and go on to give birth to people like me who live in countries they created by defeating the very bigotry that used to destroy my people. The same people descended from the people who killed and tortured my people died creating a world I could live in next to them in peace.

The lesson is there is of course evil and good in all families when we look back. No one has a monopoly on moral superiority.

So  I challenge the blurring of right wingers with ultra extremist fringe bigots for the same reason I challenge people generalizing all Muslims as extremist and I must be careful not to smeer all leftists as intolerant because of some of the mainstream dialogue that flows from their mouths on university campuses and on the internet.

Here is an article that best sums  up the position of some of us and myself who  the left define as conservative would feel about bigotry:

https://www.conservativeinstitute.org/bigotry


The above position is stated by a classic American  conservative who could be of any political party. In Canada I would suggest our version of conservatism believes in a balance of free market principles and individualism and smaller governments with necessary government regulations. We are not as quick to reject all government regulation as say conservatives might in the US.  In fact most conservatives in Canada agree with our banking regulations while in the US conservatives would probably find our banking regulations "socialist".

Most conservatives in Canada support medicare and gun control, while of course in the US they would not.

The point is to immediately assume people who are to the right of the political spectrum of Canada can never lean left on certain issues is as absurd as believing people on the left do not lean right on certain issues.

In fact I invite you to compare the positions of Robert Stanfield to Pierre Trudeau to see who was more "progressive" on social context. I invite you to do the same with Joe Clark and Trudeau in regards to the concept of confederacy or between Art Eggleton (classic Liberal) and David Crombie (Conservative) when it came to urban planning.

In Canada it often is impossible to define someone as a conservative or liberal simply because they are a member of a political party that uses these two names. Paul Martin was a fiscal conservative. Harper in his last term spent like a liberal not a conservative.

The party name means little. Its a system of patronage you choose to align with. Actual individual approach to policies could be a mix of many things.

I would argue however that I think whenever possible we should avoid believing government intervention and the government leading the way to change is the best way to do it. There is a fine line between Liberalism and state nationalism that can turn into facism or other totalitarian forms of dictatorship and institutionalized bigotry in the name of political correctness.

In the extreme case of conservatism we get tribal monarchies with unaccountable absolute power concentrated in a titular head  that stifles free expression as well.

Its not an accident that the rhetoric of anti Semitism is supported by left and right extremists equally-its because we go full circle and they become one and the same in either extreme form.

I think using a two dimensional flat plane to describe politics as either left or right is too simplistic and in reality we should use the concept of a multi-dimensional globe with all kinds of shades of all colours connotating the variation of political approaches.
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Offline waldo

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In a thread on Faith Goldy in the Canadian section I challenged Omni for gratuitously using a reference to Jews when discussing relations between the US, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Iran.

In most discussions on Israel the term “Jews” is gratuitously thrown in as an interchangeable word to describe the government of Israel, all Israelis. It is ironic because often the people who use the word this way are anti Israeli but would be the first to deny they are anti-semitic claiming not all Jews are Israelis and not all Jews are Zionists and yet they perpetuate the interchangeable use of  the term Jew and Israeli.

Why do I challenge it? Because mainstream left wing critics of the state of Israel engage in this exercise. They see themselves as morally superior to ultra right wing bigots who use the same device. So I point out they are no better. In fact its usually he mainstream right, often Christian, who support Israel as a nation and do not assume all Jews are Israeli or that only Jews support Israel’s existence. In fact the supposed right wing consists of some of the most loyal defenders of Jews as a religious group or of Israel as a country.

you're pushing it - can't help yourself, hey! ... your post @1855 words is tooooooooooooo long. The, as you say, "grinning black man" is on stand-by!

by the by, good on ya for standing up for that 20-25% of the Israeli populace that is not Jewish!  ;D The way you twisted and convoluted yourself over the simple statement member Omni made is truly the epitome of someone, you, simply starved for attention.

Oh then maybe that's why Trump gave the Saudis billions worth of hi-tech US weaponry so as to stop Iran from trying that. He wants to protect his bum buddy Netanyahu. And of course we all know how much the Saudis like Jews!
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