Author Topic: The Progressive Thread!  (Read 8476 times)

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guest78

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #225 on: December 22, 2020, 12:14:13 pm »
And you obviously don't understand the issue.

When people talk about abortion as a right, they're talking about the right to bodily autonomy not...whatever the hell you're blethering about.
Those are two different things.  Regardless, nobody has complete bodily autonomy.

Online Black Dog

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #226 on: December 22, 2020, 12:15:19 pm »
You don't think gender was an issue when the court decided in favor of a WOMAN'S rights to have access to abortion? It couldn't be more gender oriented. oh and btw, just to set you straight, again, it wasn't 9 smiling faces, it was 7-2.

The dude thinks the right to abortion means you can go up and demand someone give you an abortion and they have to say yes. He's not a smart person.

guest78

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #227 on: December 22, 2020, 12:15:44 pm »
You don't think gender was an issue when the court decided in favor of a WOMAN'S rights to have access to abortion? It couldn't be more gender oriented. oh and btw, just to set you straight, again, it wasn't 9 smiling faces, it was 7-2.
So what?  Did men decide?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #228 on: December 22, 2020, 12:16:42 pm »
I don't remember gender being an issue when 9 smiling male justices decided Roe v Wade.  Just matters when a decision doesn't go your way huh?  Weird.
Regardless, I'm not sure what reproductive rights you're referring to.  Asking somebody else to preform a medical procedure, paid for by other people aren't rights.

No, that was the 70s.  But sure it makes sense that if the decision doesn't go the way people want people look for reasons.  Kind of like how the first thing Trumpers look at when a decision goes against them is "who appointed the judge" ?

guest78

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #229 on: December 22, 2020, 12:16:48 pm »
The dude thinks the right to abortion means you can go up and demand someone give you an abortion and they have to say yes. He's not a smart person.
No, that's not it at all.  Stop being obtuse.  What's the difference to claiming a right to access something vs a right to that something? 

guest78

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #230 on: December 22, 2020, 12:17:21 pm »
No, that was the 70s.  But sure it makes sense that if the decision doesn't go the way people want people look for reasons.  Kind of like how the first thing Trumpers look at when a decision goes against them is "who appointed the judge" ?
Yes, and the opposite. 

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #231 on: December 22, 2020, 12:20:29 pm »
Yeah, but... really who cares ? 

Do you feel the need to crowd into a topic where you are barely impacted ?  Are you like those Republican photos where a dozen smiling male legislators are signing somebody's reproductive rights away ?

I see it as "a right to not free speak where it's not needed"...

It’s fine for women to chime in and have an opinion on “men’s issues”.  Depending on the woman, I might even value her opinion above yours, despite you being a man.

So who cares?   I care.  Why wouldn’t I?  Why would I dismiss someone’s opinion on a topic strictly because of their gender/orientation?  I find that a shitty thing to do.

That’s what men have been doing to women’s opinions for decades, and I thought we determined at some point that it was wrong to do so. 
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guest78

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #232 on: December 22, 2020, 12:22:08 pm »
It’s fine for women to chime in and have an opinion on “men’s issues”.  Depending on the woman, I might even value her opinion above yours, despite you being a man.

So who cares?   I care.  Why wouldn’t I?  Why would I dismiss someone’s opinion on a topic strictly because of their gender/orientation?  I find that a shitty thing to do.

That’s what men have been doing to women’s opinions for decades, and I thought we determined at some point that it was wrong to do so.
100%

Online Black Dog

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #233 on: December 22, 2020, 12:26:42 pm »
No, that's not it at all.  Stop being obtuse.  What's the difference to claiming a right to access something vs a right to that something?

Access to something means you COULD get it, a right to something means you shall not be impeded from it. When people argue that access to abortion is a right, they are arguing for the right not to be prevented by government from seeking an abortion, which is consistent with a view of rights and freedoms that protects individuals against coercive government action.
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Offline Omni

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #234 on: December 22, 2020, 12:27:56 pm »
So what?  Did men decide?

Men happened to be filling the SCOTUS seats at that time. Do you think a presence of women would have changed the outcome especially when we are talking about womens rights?

Offline Omni

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #235 on: December 22, 2020, 12:30:16 pm »
The dude thinks the right to abortion means you can go up and demand someone give you an abortion and they have to say yes. He's not a smart person.

Maybe he should attend a law course before entering such issues.

guest78

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #236 on: December 22, 2020, 12:34:40 pm »
Men happened to be filling the SCOTUS seats at that time. Do you think a presence of women would have changed the outcome especially when we are talking about womens rights?
There are no such things as women's rights.  There are just rights.
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guest78

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #237 on: December 22, 2020, 12:39:04 pm »
Access to something means you COULD get it, a right to something means you shall not be impeded from it. When people argue that access to abortion is a right, they are arguing for the right not to be prevented by government from seeking an abortion, which is consistent with a view of rights and freedoms that protects individuals against coercive government action.
Access to something you COULD get?  Like is there some kind of lottery or something?  Seems like you guys need to come up with a better slogan.  Because when it comes down to it, having somebody else terminate your pregnancy, paid for, by other people isn't a right.  Even if you come up with an access list for it.  It also ignores science and biology.  I can understand the ignorance of the issues involved when medical science was limited to the 1960s and 1970s knowledge.  But not now.  There's no excuse.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #238 on: December 22, 2020, 12:52:36 pm »
It’s fine for women to chime in and have an opinion on “men’s issues”.  Depending on the woman, I might even value her opinion above yours, despite you being a man.

So who cares?   I care.  Why wouldn’t I?  Why would I dismiss someone’s opinion on a topic strictly because of their gender/orientation?  I find that a shitty thing to do.

That’s what men have been doing to women’s opinions for decades, and I thought we determined at some point that it was wrong to do so.

Well... you're missing a few things:

- I'm not telling people to stay out of it, I'm saying I don't need to add my voice to a topic that impacts women more than men
- Women were told to stay out of things that definitely impacted them
- I'm also not dismissing someone's opinion but it's more about how we think of a "public" discussion space around a topic

I'm really working this out in my mind, the_squid, so please feel free to add ideas to the mix here.

Again - this is about how we form "publics" because such things are very malleable and plastic today.  When democracy was designed there was a static "public" structure and today these things come up in such a way that anyone on earth can provide an opinion on any topic imaginable.  So my question is "how do we deal with it ?".

The idea I have is for people to check out if they aren't significantly impacted.

Offline Omni

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #239 on: December 22, 2020, 01:04:43 pm »
Access to something you COULD get?  Like is there some kind of lottery or something?  Seems like you guys need to come up with a better slogan.  Because when it comes down to it, having somebody else terminate your pregnancy, paid for, by other people isn't a right.  Even if you come up with an access list for it.  It also ignores science and biology.  I can understand the ignorance of the issues involved when medical science was limited to the 1960s and 1970s knowledge.  But not now.  There's no excuse.

It's been explained to you once here as I recall but here we go again. Women have the right to seek an abortion in Canada but there are certain limitations to access. The length of the pregnancy to date is one.