Author Topic: The Progressive Thread!  (Read 1939 times)

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #150 on: October 06, 2020, 12:07:11 am »
Stop living in fear.  You are free to express your opinions, as always.

We all live in fear.  Say the wrong opinions, you lose your job, your career etc.  You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #151 on: October 06, 2020, 07:16:05 am »
We all live in fear.  Say the wrong opinions, you lose your job, your career etc.  You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.

There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #152 on: October 06, 2020, 09:59:20 am »
There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole

But now the question of what constitutes being an a**hole is being decided by a mob of dopes on the internet.

For example yesterday I was reading that worldfamous champion cycling superstar, college professor, motivational speaker, and trans rights superhero Veronica Ivy (formerly known as Rachel V McKinnon... because she thought a stripper/porn star would be more feminine, I guess?) is asking her followers to stalk her competitors on Facebook and get screen-captures of anybody who complains about trans-women in women's sport so that she can send them to their sponsors and to USA Cycling.

(Veronica is also miffed that people at her event were cheering for her opponent instead of her:

Imagine the entitlement. I think Veronica has probably done more to create pushback against trans activism than Amy Eileen Hamm or Meghan Murphy could ever hope to.)


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Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #153 on: October 06, 2020, 10:42:50 am »
But now the question of what constitutes being an a**hole is being decided by a mob of dopes on the internet.

That's because "now" there is an internet.  Before, the mob had landlines.

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anybody who complains about trans-women in women's sport so that she can send them to their sponsors and to USA Cycling.

Sounds like she is against 'the mob' actually, but ok.  She shouldn't (and probably won't) get people to boycott based on reasonable discussion.  But what a 'complaint' is really is dependent...
 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #154 on: October 06, 2020, 12:49:57 pm »
There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole

Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #155 on: October 06, 2020, 12:57:16 pm »
Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

Remember the young east indian 'looking' guy on CBC who got the ax for being the 'S' side in S&M play with women? What was his name?
I had a lot of sympathy for that guy. He was actually playing with women in the way those particular women wanted to play, but that wasn't politically correct at the time. I wonder what would be said if it was all revisited? Any interest in the topic?

Cheers.

edit: ahhhh right, Gian Ghomeshi.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #156 on: October 06, 2020, 12:58:20 pm »
Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

And... this is as it always was. 

I actually would love to live in an environment where people are so able to not take offense that ANYTHING can be discussed.  Communism would be a great topic to tackle...

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #157 on: October 06, 2020, 01:30:41 pm »
And... this is as it always was. 
  Communism would be a great topic to tackle...

That discussion could actually happen on a Canadian forum but American heads would start to explode if there was any sort of suggestions made on how communism, socialism, and socially responsible democracies all differ.

Can you do it?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #158 on: October 06, 2020, 07:01:47 pm »
That discussion could actually happen on a Canadian forum but American heads would start to explode if there was any sort of suggestions made on how communism, socialism, and socially responsible democracies all differ.

Can you do it?

Not at work, no.  I work at a bank.  ;D

Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #159 on: October 07, 2020, 02:08:45 am »
Remember the young east indian 'looking' guy on CBC who got the ax for being the 'S' side in S&M play with women? What was his name?
I had a lot of sympathy for that guy. He was actually playing with women in the way those particular women wanted to play, but that wasn't politically correct at the time. I wonder what would be said if it was all revisited? Any interest in the topic?

Cheers.

edit: ahhhh right, Gian Ghomeshi.
He doesn't deserve your sympathy. People remember that Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, but people forget that he treated female employees at CBC like garbage.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-cathryn-borel-sexual-assault-charge-1.3576702

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223

CBC's inquiry into how their management handled complaints about Ghomeshi resulted in 2 managers being fired.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Bad publicity from the criminal charges was the catalyst that led to the rest of this stuff becoming public. 

He deserved to be fired for the way he treated other employees.

The only reason he didn't get fired sooner was that the network brass thought that he was their star, and felt that the women who he abused were expendable if it kept him happy.

He's a goon who bullied and degraded women because he knew that he could get away with it.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #160 on: October 07, 2020, 02:32:49 am »
That's because "now" there is an internet.  Before, the mob had landlines.

Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny.  You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.  You didn't have

Sounds like she is against 'the mob' actually, but ok. 

Oh come on. She's asking people to monitor the Facebook posts of her competitors to look for instances of wrongthink so that she can report them to the USA Cycling organization and complain to their sponsors. She's not "against 'the mob'",  she's leading 'the mob'.  She's the one bellowing for the villagers to get their torches and pitchforks and find the witches.

She shouldn't (and probably won't) get people to boycott based on reasonable discussion.  But what a 'complaint' is really is dependent...

To many people, "female athletes should not have to compete against male-bodied competitors" is a reasonable opinion. Some people would claim it's hate speech.  And those people believe that calling you transphobic is sufficient to create "consequences" (as Ms Ivy puts it) for you.  They hope that the accusation of transphobia on its own is so toxic as to render you a pariah regardless of whether you have a reasonable argument to make.  They hope that your employer (or your social group or whatever) is sufficiently frightened of becoming involved in any sort of controversy that they will cut ties with you rather than face the ire of some woke mob that may or may not even exist.

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Offline JuniperRose

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #161 on: October 07, 2020, 09:23:54 am »
Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny. 

 -k

Before the internet I was married and living in a townhouse complex.  My husband left, and I lived there alone.  One night I had 3 friends over, we played cards till around 1 in the morning.   Another night, I was cleaning late at night and noticed a car driving around the complex several times.  It was weird, so I called the cops, the cops came to talk to them and then to me.  A couple of weeks later, I was given notice because the neighbors wete complaining that I was having such wild parties, the police had to be called.  Even though I explained both circumstances  the property manager was adamant that I had to leave.

I moved to a very small town in Northern BC.  I was single, I went out dancing a lot and I had sex rather freely.  I worked as a server at a couple of places, but then I wasn't able to get a job when the second one ended.  Came to find out I had a "reputation", so my job prospects became nonexistent.

Now, I get that the internet is new and the issue of people ganging up on someone they perceive as "misbehaving" is certainly more visible, but its not "new" by any means.  I am an ordinary person who faced intense scrutiny, to the point I lost a place to live and couldn't get a job - well before the internet.  My "crime" was basically being single in the first case  and being sexually active in the second case
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You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.

I agree that this is new for ordinary people; less so for people who've spent time in the public eye.   Internet makes the spreading of past and current "sins" a lot easier and technology today makes creating lies possible in a way it wasn't previously.

It seems to me the behaviour you are railing against is normal human behaviour and was pretty common prior to the internet.  The internet has definitely amplified it, that is easy to see.

I think this is a process and that over time a balance will be found.  In terms of misinformation, things are beginning to change with both FB and Twitter making moves to reduce its spread.  Perhaps the mobbing up and targetting of individuals will become the next behavior online platforms will address. 

Of course, this does take people like you objecting to it so strongly to drive that change, whereas people like me - basically ignoring it - are not helpful in that regard.

40 years ago, being a single female was suspect enough to get you evicted, and being female and sexually active was enough to impact employment opportunities.  I don't think that is true anymore, even in small town BC.  Perhaps 40 years from now  we'll see an entirely different "social media" experience.   (Well not me, more likely you.)  And it'll be due to people who cared enough to fight for it, so good on you.

I know, this post is a bit rambly, sorry about that. 

Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #162 on: October 07, 2020, 10:43:57 am »
Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny.  You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.  You didn't have

Yes, this is true.  Well... you didn't have a *global* audience to your behaviour and there wasn't homogenized morality.  We are part of that smoothing process now.

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Oh come on. She's asking people to monitor the Facebook posts of her competitors to look for instances of wrongthink so that she can report them to the USA Cycling organization and complain to their sponsors. She's not "against 'the mob'",  she's leading 'the mob'.  She's the one bellowing for the villagers to get their torches and pitchforks and find the witches.

Why are the people who are using social media on one side a mob and the others not ?   

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To many people, "female athletes should not have to compete against male-bodied competitors" is a reasonable opinion. Some people would claim it's hate speech.

I already covered this... it depends on what a complaint is.

All of this sounds like mob vs. mob to me.  I'm not supportive of people being fired for private comments, but public comments are fair game and the devil is always hiding there between the details.

"I think that trans women should have some criteria for inclusion" is innocuous
"Trans women are men - BAN them from sports" isn't

And... really this whole topic is not that interesting.  There's nothing new here in terms of morality.  I don't care much either way on this, as long as really repugnant speech is ostracized, and I'm sure you would agree with me where that line is.

This is the process of homogenization of morality, which is natural.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #163 on: October 07, 2020, 12:30:09 pm »
He doesn't deserve your sympathy. People remember that Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, but people forget that he treated female employees at CBC like garbage.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-cathryn-borel-sexual-assault-charge-1.3576702

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223

CBC's inquiry into how their management handled complaints about Ghomeshi resulted in 2 managers being fired.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Bad publicity from the criminal charges was the catalyst that led to the rest of this stuff becoming public. 

He deserved to be fired for the way he treated other employees.

The only reason he didn't get fired sooner was that the network brass thought that he was their star, and felt that the women who he abused were expendable if it kept him happy.

He's a goon who bullied and degraded women because he knew that he could get away with it.

 -k

Well kimmy, if you have an interest in discussing the issue then I'll start by feeling you out to see if you intend to stay rational about it. So I'll just start with the suggestion that Khomeshi was cleared of any possible crimes. And that the CBC got rid of him because of the negative appearance of him being a celebrity and being allowed to continue with CBC.

Do you know if Ghomeshi brought any lawsuits against the CBC? Or was CBC immune to a lawsuit because of the contract with Ghomeshi?
And of course the hot question is on whether any of the women involved were into S&M?

« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 12:38:00 pm by Montgomery »
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #164 on: October 08, 2020, 02:55:40 am »
Well kimmy, if you have an interest in discussing the issue then I'll start by feeling you out to see if you intend to stay rational about it. So I'll just start with the suggestion that Khomeshi was cleared of any possible crimes.

That isn't true.  He was acquitted on charges relating to things that occurred outside the workplace. He did not face trial for any of the workplace harassment he committed at CBC. He did face one charge for sexually assaulting a colleague at work, but it was settled with a peace-bond and formal apology from Ghomeshi.

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And that the CBC got rid of him because of the negative appearance of him being a celebrity and being allowed to continue with CBC.

CBC had ample cause for firing him:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

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Do you know if Ghomeshi brought any lawsuits against the CBC?  Or was CBC immune to a lawsuit because of the contract with Ghomeshi?

He attempted to sue the CBC for $55 million dollars, withdrew the suit, and ended up paying CBC's legal expenses.

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And of course the hot question is on whether any of the women involved were into S&M?

That's completely irrelevant. We're talking about Ghomeshi's workplace behavior, and what his victims do in the privacy of their bedrooms doesn't give Ghomeshi a license to harass them in the workplace.

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