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Author Topic: The Progressive Thread!  (Read 8615 times)

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Offline eyeball

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2020, 06:42:31 pm »
Quote from: wilber on September 17, 2020, 06:26:24 pm
Why is it always women who are having to deal with this bullshit?
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around. I get a sense of what a reasonable conservative has to put up with in a tent big enough for Q-Anon.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #121 on: September 17, 2020, 07:24:32 pm »





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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #122 on: September 17, 2020, 07:27:01 pm »


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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #123 on: September 17, 2020, 07:31:55 pm »


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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #124 on: September 17, 2020, 07:48:18 pm »
Quoting tweets seems like a weird way to post for this place  ???
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Offline Dia

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #125 on: September 17, 2020, 07:52:13 pm »
So, they're not making a whole lot of sense to this cisgender, heteronormative (more or less) female-identifying person.  The conversation looks like people trying to outdo each other's jargon.  While this may be of interest to committed activists, most people are gonna just ignore it, imo. 
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #126 on: September 17, 2020, 07:54:26 pm »
Quote from: MH on September 17, 2020, 07:48:18 pm
Quoting tweets seems like a weird way to post for this place  ???

I originally started this thread to make fun of woke-people culture, and those tweets tickled my fancy.

Quote from: JuniperRose on September 17, 2020, 07:52:13 pm
So, they're not making a whole lot of sense to this cisgender, heteronormative (more or less) female-identifying person.  The conversation looks like people trying to outdo each other's jargon.  While this may be of interest to committed activists, most people are gonna just ignore it, imo. 

Anna Slatz is doing satire. The other person is dead serious.

 -k
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #127 on: September 17, 2020, 08:20:59 pm »
Quote from: eyeball on September 17, 2020, 06:42:31 pm
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around.

Maybe because they are responsible for a lot of it.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2020, 08:26:18 pm »
Quote from: MH on September 17, 2020, 01:22:46 pm
Whew.... given the money and attention given to the WNBA by straight white men, I'll bet we're all relieved by this...  ???

I assume you're asking this in an academic sense, because only a king sized **** would suggest that since straight white men don't give a **** about women's sports it doesn't matter to anybody.

Quote from: MH on September 17, 2020, 02:30:16 pm
Why do you care ?

Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?


I am guessing that you're trying to advance the notion that this is concern-trolling. That since straight white men don't watch WNBA on TV, straight white men who claim to be concerned about fairness for female athletes are not being sincere.

Jesse Brown advanced a similar argument in THEGREATESTPODCASTEVER: "LOLOLOL, these right wingers suddenly pretending they care about marginalized, racialized aestheticians! When did right wingers start caring about racialized, marginalized women?"  I said at the time, and I still believe this to be true: that is a spectacularly dumb argument to advance because it begs the question: don't YOU care about those racialized, marginalized women?

I've never understood the accusation of "concern trolling" as a debate tactic.  Even if a subject isn't a personal concern for the person making the argument, the subject is a personal concern for somebody, and we're still allowed to be concerned about issues that don't directly affect us.  If you're mocking somebody's concern for an issue, you're making an implicit argument that the issue isn't worth being concerned over.

 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2020, 08:37:19 pm »
Quote from: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 08:26:18 pm
I assume you're asking this in an academic sense, because only a king sized **** would suggest that since straight white men don't give a **** about women's sports it doesn't matter to anybody.

I'm harkening back to the boys at The Rebel and The Sun who are using these things to fuel angertainment.

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Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

Yes so I 'liked' his comment and explanation ok ?

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If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

I have said umpteen times plus two that I don't want to shut down the debate.

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You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?

I think I explained this at the top of our looong discussion on this.

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I am guessing that you're trying to advance the notion that this is concern-trolling. That since straight white men don't watch WNBA on TV, straight white men who claim to be concerned about fairness for female athletes are not being sincere.

Bingo.

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Jesse Brown advanced a similar argument in THEGREATESTPODCASTEVER: "LOLOLOL, these right wingers suddenly pretending they care about marginalized, racialized aestheticians! When did right wingers start caring about racialized, marginalized women?"  I said at the time, and I still believe this to be true: that is a spectacularly dumb argument to advance because it begs the question: don't YOU care about those racialized, marginalized women?

Sure - and I say that they should host the debate.  I am listening to the points you and JKR are making.  I am NOT getting angry over Jessica Janiv, JKR, you, or anybody who has an opinion AND a stake in it. 

The people who profit from angertainment are my (And Canadaland and Mary Rogan's) targets.  There is nothing in there where they say that woman can't raise the concerns that you share.

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I've never understood the accusation of "concern trolling" as a debate tactic.  Even if a subject isn't a personal concern for the person making the argument, the subject is a personal concern for somebody, and we're still allowed to be concerned about issues that don't directly affect us.  If you're mocking somebody's concern for an issue, you're making an implicit argument that the issue isn't worth being concerned over.

It's not concern, it's concern TROLLING.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2020, 08:49:42 pm »
Quote from: eyeball on September 17, 2020, 06:42:31 pm
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around. I get a sense of what a reasonable conservative has to put up with in a tent big enough for Q-Anon.

The left is about justice and fairness.  The left is about sticking up for the little guy and trying to make things better for the people who are worst off.  That's a good thing. 

I think all of us would agree that trans people deserve to be safe and to have legal protection against discrimination.  But some of the things that trans people and their allies are calling for goes beyond what many people see as being reasonable or fair.   Even in very liberal California, polling says that most people don't think transwomen should be in prison with cisgender women, or competing in sport against cisgender women.

I've been reading gender-critical feminists who are quite depressed that their options in the upcoming US election are either vote for the Mango Mussolini or vote for the guy who wants to put transwomen in women's prisons and women's sports.  Trans issues won't be what makes the difference in the US election, but some of them are sufficiently grossed out that they are talking about not voting.

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Offline wilber

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #131 on: September 17, 2020, 09:12:31 pm »



Quote
Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?



Would I be as involved? Maybe not but I would still have the same opinion.



As and old straight white guy, I try to be careful when I post on this subject because I have to admit, much of the debate is beyond me. On the other hand, women aways seem to be getting the dirty end of the stick when it comes to these issues. That just doesn't seem right.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #132 on: September 17, 2020, 09:27:38 pm »
Quote from: wilber on September 17, 2020, 09:12:31 pm

 



As and old straight white guy, I try to be careful when I post on this subject because I have to admit, much of the debate is beyond me. 
;)
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #133 on: September 17, 2020, 09:52:49 pm »
Quote from: MH on September 16, 2020, 07:44:14 pm
Well... I am just saying that your general assertion isn't clear to me.  Could *I* refuse a trans doctor ?  A gay doctor ?

If it's on the basis that you just don't like "those people", then I wouldn't think so.  That's not reasonable.  A woman not wanting a biologically male doctor to touch her privates is reasonable.  A woman not wanting to wax a transwoman's balls is reasonable.  If that woman also wants to refuse to give the transwoman a pedicure, there's no reasonable basis to that.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #134 on: September 17, 2020, 10:10:58 pm »
The rights for all minorities and oppressed people, and for all people generally, is that i support anyone doing whatever you want, everyone should born free on this earth.  But a person's rights only go as far as until they come into conflict with the rights of others.  That's the crux of the issue here.  Your freedom to swing your fists ends where my nose begins.

Minorities shouldn't have more rights than non-minorities just because society feels worse for the minorities or they have been oppressed at some point.  Human rights don't work like that.  Everyone is EQUAL under the law.  That's the whole point!

So your right to express your gender identity anyway you want shouldn't bother anyone until it conflicts with the rights of others.  When a biological man who identifies with the gender of a woman (a transwoman) wants to compete in sports against women, now you're trampling on the rights of women who want a fair competition without a biological man dominating the competition, and in contact sports there's also a big issue of safety.

Transwomen have rights, so do women.  Everyone's worried about trans rights in order to make things more inclusive for them, but it shouldn't come at someone else's expense.  Which is why affirmative action irks me.  POC and women shouldn't be denied employment simply on the basis of their sex or race, but neither should men and whites.

We've created an "oppression hierarchy" where the rights of the more oppressed groups supersede the groups below them on the hierarchy.  It's total BS.  Everyone has EQUAL human rights.
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