Author Topic: The Progressive Thread!  (Read 8452 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2020, 10:59:12 am »
Why is it news that mobs exist though ?

There are lots of idiots about, I have noticed... 

We don't tweet about the MAGA bunch much here either.  Because it's boring to be outraged all the time...

I feel like pretty much everybody is aware of how disgusting the MAGA bunch are.  Even the MAGA people themselves-- they seem to be somewhat proud of it in fact.

I am not sure many progressives realize how much disgusting behavior is being carried out under the banner of "social justice".  I think that some people would prefer to turn a blind eye, or even rationalize/justify it.

And I think that many progressives have become so obsessed with the idea of intersectionality that they don't see a problem with plain old misogyny unless there are trans people or POC on the receiving end.

 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2020, 11:39:02 am »
I feel like pretty much everybody is aware of how disgusting the MAGA bunch are.  Even the MAGA people themselves-- they seem to be somewhat proud of it in fact.

I am not sure many progressives realize how much disgusting behavior is being carried out under the banner of "social justice".  I think that some people would prefer to turn a blind eye, or even rationalize/justify it.

And I think that many progressives have become so obsessed with the idea of intersectionality that they don't see a problem with plain old misogyny unless there are trans people or POC on the receiving end.
 

But why do we need to know ?  The MAGA bunch likes to post pictures of people throwing things at cops etc.
a
As a 'public' - what is the function of having a group shamed by showing behaviour of individuals in that group ?  I'm not saying there's no function at all.   I'm asking what it is.

When you think about it, individual incidents of racism are elevated and called out ie. "can you believe THIS happens in Canada in this day and age ?".

Nobody thinks much about that,maybe because even a single incident is a shameful thing and nobody believes that such behaviour is generally acceptable.  But what are the new parameters around group behaviour ?

Offline wilber

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2020, 01:05:16 pm »
No, they expressed their views to friends, who told others.

Why aren't those examples cancel culture?

Because people called people rather than tweeting?

When could private political views get you fired in Canada? Methinks that should be a slam dunk before any kind of tribunal.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2020, 01:25:16 pm »
It's not evident to many people how offensive it is to make anti-trans comments of any level.

If you were a woman who had been assaulted or **** by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a **** and balls naked in the changeroom with you?  Would you trust 100% of these transwomen to actually be trans women?  Have you ever heard of any examples of men doing weird and creepy things to get off?
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2020, 01:33:24 pm »
When could private political views get you fired in Canada? Methinks that should be a slam dunk before any kind of tribunal.

Yes, it has happened and it's why academic freedom councils were invented.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2020, 01:34:51 pm »
If you were a woman who had been assaulted or **** by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a **** and balls naked in the changeroom with you?

Why are you asking such an irrelevant question ?

It's like Capital Punishment debate, where people asked 'if it was YOUR family member' etc. ? 

No, I wouldn't feel comfortable... is that helpful ?

Now, let's get back to the discussion...
 
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2020, 01:55:43 pm »
Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

I certainly feel that most social media is a giant flaming ball of crap and have no wish to be involved personally. However, Twitter is apparently supposed to be a marketplace of ideas. It's used by all the politicians to express their views and interact with the public.  It's used by celebrities to promote their new endeavors and interact with their fans.   If women are being pushed out of this platform by intimidation and threats, they're being pushed out of the marketplace of ideas.

Here's a story from a pub owner in Sheffield England who clicked "like" on a Tweet that somebody apparently felt was "problematic".  A trans activist spotted the egregious offense, and contacted a brewery, demanding to have her fired.  The brewery forwarded the complaint to her, which resulted in this response:

https://theharlequinpub.wordpress.com/2020/09/10/formal-complaints-gross-misconduct-and-a-swift-resolution/

It's funny, in the sense that the trans activist was hilariously mistaken about the brewery's ability to fire the bar owner. On the other hand, it's a little disturbing to see the extent to which some activists are going in their efforts to silence dissent.  As I keep saying, the purpose of a witch-hunt isn't to kill one witch, it's to scare other women into compliance. The trans activist couldn't get the pub owner fired, and the woke mob hasn't been able to silence JKRowling. But if you're a typical woman, you probably don't own your own business, and you probably aren't a famous billionaire who can do whatever she likes.  If you're a typical woman, the potential to get in trouble of some kind for "liking" the wrong post on Twitter is pretty scary.

And, this isn't just in the online world. Fear about the consequences of being branded transphobic has women afraid in real life too.  In the other thread I mentioned the story of the woman who left her yoga studio because she was afraid that she'd be branded a transphobe if she complained about the trans-woman staring at her in the shower. I've read several accounts from young lesbians who were either thrown out of their LGBTQ2SIA+ student groups because they were deemed transphobes for not wanting to date transwomen, or who had been coerced into dating transwomen out of fear of being ostracized if they said no. Some time ago in the other thread I posted the results of a survey of UK lesbians of which a significant percentage had experienced consequences after saying "no" to dating transwomen. Doxxing, employers contacted, exclusion from LGBT groups, this sort of thing.

In this environment where people shoot first and ask questions later, being labeled a transphobe is a quick way to get shot at.

 -k
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Offline Dia

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2020, 02:01:37 pm »
If you were a woman who had been assaulted or **** by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a **** and balls naked in the changeroom with you?  Would you trust 100% of these transwomen to actually be trans women?  Have you ever heard of any examples of men doing weird and creepy things to get off?

All the transpeople I've met are pretty considerate about the comfort level of others.

Would any woman who'd been assaulted or **** by a man be comfortable with a 6'3" man in her immediate vicinity, clothed or not?

Yes, men can do creepy things - including installing spy cameras/peepholes in female-only spaces, positioning cell phones  beneath stairs to record women in skirts as they use the stairs, standing outside bedroom windows, using binoculars/telescopes to look at women through more distant windows, presumably ising drones and cameras for the same purpose.  In order to protect women at all times, should we outlaw phones, caneras, binoculars, telescopes?   Or dictate that men cannot be within 2 kms of women at any time, in case of a man being a creep or a woman being frightened?

And, why is there no concern about a man being traumatized by being exposed to a woman with bare boobs and exposed **** in a man's changing area?  Are all male experiences with women invariably positive?  Do all men just automatically welcome naked women into their space?  Are no women ever predatory, violent or just plain creepy?

The argument put forth about the threat of trans-male in a female space strikes me as fear-mongering because this narrative presents women as helpless and needing protection from what is, realistically, a pretty minor threat.  Using the protection of women/children to galvanize people to some action is pretty standard propaganda.

Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2020, 02:11:43 pm »
But why do we need to know ?  The MAGA bunch likes to post pictures of people throwing things at cops etc.

As a 'public' - what is the function of having a group shamed by showing behaviour of individuals in that group ?  I'm not saying there's no function at all.   I'm asking what it is.

When you think about it, individual incidents of racism are elevated and called out ie. "can you believe THIS happens in Canada in this day and age ?".

Nobody thinks much about that,maybe because even a single incident is a shameful thing and nobody believes that such behaviour is generally acceptable.  But what are the new parameters around group behaviour ?

I think that when people ask "can you believe this racist crap still happens in Canada in 2020?" it stigmatizes and marginalizes unacceptable behavior. Which is good, right?



There's lots of things I can't believe still happen in 2020.  I can't believe women are being threatened with physical violence for expressive their opinions in 2020. I can't believe that lesbians are being told they need to learn to accept pen1s in 2020.  I can't believe lesbians are being threatened with corrective **** in 2020.  I think that actual progressives would be concerned by those things as well.  I think that real progressives would want to know about that and denounce it.


Also, I think more attention to this trend would perhaps get Twitter and similar businesses to put some thought into improving their platform.  I would think that if people paid more attention to how normalized misogyny has become, companies that care about their public image would want to do something to address it.



 -k
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2020, 02:17:11 pm »
I miss British pubs. If I'm ever in Sheffield, I'll check the Harlequin out.
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Offline Dia

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2020, 02:38:53 pm »

Also, I think more attention to this trend would perhaps get Twitter and similar businesses to put some thought into improving their platform.  I would think that if people paid more attention to how normalized misogyny has become, companies that care about their public image would want to do something to address it.

 -k

I'm not on twitter, so don't feel I can say much about the bullying that goes on there.  But I wonder what you think they should do to address this, exactly?  If they remove those 'bullying' posts, they'll be accused of interfering with "free speech" and the people prone to bullying will go to Reddit (I suppose they're already there), FB, snapchat, instagram, etc., - wherever they feel they can express their disapproval.   

I think there are a lot of moderate people in the world; I think they're the majority.   I also think they're the ones least likely to engage in conflict online, so the majority of what we see in the online world are the extremes of any viewpoint.  It's easy to forget that those are not really representative of what most people think.  I think its easy to see a problem as bigger than it is, if too much attention is paid to what is happening online.  It also seems to me that what was big news/scandal/event in the online world this week is practically forgotten in a few months time.

I think at some point, companies, not media companies, but just regular companies, will have to take a stand about firing as a result of social media mob action.  They should, perhaps, devise a 'standard' for which people can be fired - outright cruelty to animals, making death threats, online or not, getting arrested for racism, spousal abuse, sexual assault - but not for being mobbed on Twitter or any other platform for an expressed opinion.  I think more moderate people should find a way to speak up if they see mobbing on social media - but I don't have much hope for that, since yeah - who likes to deal with all that conflict?  Not many.

There is a lot about social media that has to change, but I do think the priority has to be the spread of misinformation online.  It's not that this issue of online bullying/cancel culture isn't important, but in my view it's less of a priority than misinformation that can cause rather more societal harm than whether JK Rowling (or anyone else) loses book sales. 

Btw, as a result of this thread and in a roundabout way her attackers, I'll be looking to read her new series.  Kind of an unintended consequence of this, eh? 

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2020, 02:51:41 pm »
I think that when people ask "can you believe this racist crap still happens in Canada in 2020?" it stigmatizes and marginalizes unacceptable behavior. Which is good, right?

I gave some parameters as to why it could be good, yes.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2020, 03:21:33 pm »
I gave some parameters as to why it could be good, yes.

But it's not good for some things, like drawing conclusions about a group. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2020, 05:01:29 pm »
Many transgender women want the right to use female change-rooms and compete in women's sports.  Many biological women want the right to not have to compete against biological men in sports or have them in a change-room when they're both naked.

So we have a conflict in rights.  We also have to acknowledge that transwomen and biological women aren't the same and will never be the same and should be treated as such in circumstances where it matters, like sports.  If a woman doesn't want a transwoman being their gynecologist that's their right, just as it's their right not to want a male one.  Men are discriminated against all the time.  Female-only gyms for instance.  If a woman doesn't want to wax your legs with your dick and balls in her face, she has that right.  Anyone who insists is a disgusting narcissist piece of crap.  Any transwoman who takes pride in beating women in sports is a moron.

Personally I don't care, as I'm neither a trans person or a women, so whatever.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2020, 06:34:10 pm »
It's not necessarily a right to refuse a doctor because you don't like their group...