Author Topic: The Progressive Thread!  (Read 3682 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #345 on: February 22, 2021, 03:08:59 pm »
That’s the way it has worked so far.   How is it more dangerous to have laws and a court decide rather than a mob?

Because the state has a lot more power than the mob?

Here's where this gets you.

It should be noted that this stuff in France has been floated closer to home by Jordan Peterson (who planned to build a website that would have listed courses containing “postmodern neo-Marxist course content,” in an effort to decrease enrollment in those courses) and embraced by government's in Ontario and Alberta (under the guise of "academic freedom").

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Yes, that’s fine, depending on the school’s policies and government policies dictating who can speak on campuses.  They can be open to things like human rights violations if they cancel someone because people just don’t like what they say. 

But, if it was canceled because of security concerns, threats of violence, then it’s no different than right-wing Nazi groups scaring people from speaking about anti-racism.  I would call that ‘cancel culture’.

That's fair, but I doubt a lot of those who rail against cancel culture would agree with that narrow definition.

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Criticism of Israel is fair game.  Why should anyone’s career be ruined for criticizing policies?  Are there jackasses who are whiny hypocrites?   Yup.

Forcing people with a different opinion than you not to speak is how I define ‘cancel culture’.

I’ve never said that speech should be free of consequences.  But if the consequence is a punch in the face, then, no.  That’s not a legitimate form of protest or consequences.  If it is physically blocking or intimidating people from a venue, then that is also not a valid form of protest or consequence.

I think most people would agree that violence or threats of violence to deter speech is bad. But that doesn't cover very many examples of people who've supposedly been "canceled" so I think your definition of the phenomenon, while reasonable, is not the same one that is widespread.


« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 03:42:25 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #346 on: February 22, 2021, 03:42:23 pm »
Too vague.  Your definition allows everything to be considered ‘cancel culture’.

Not everything, only when people are cancelled.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #347 on: February 22, 2021, 03:42:57 pm »
Not everything, only when people are cancelled.

So who has been cancelled?

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #348 on: February 22, 2021, 03:44:25 pm »
So who has been cancelled?

I'm sure there's a list online somewhere.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #349 on: February 22, 2021, 03:45:07 pm »
I'm sure there's a list online somewhere.

But I'm asking you.

EDIT: so i looked up and here are a few people who have been "cancelled," their crimes and their punishments:

JK Rowling
Crime: transphobia
Punishment: forced to live in a draughty castle in Scotland and sleep on bags of money

Woody Allen
Crime: accused of sexually molesting his stepdaughter, definitely married his much younger other stepdaughter
Punishment: gets to keep making movies long after anyone cared about his movies

R. Kelly
Crime: literal crimes
Punishment: currently awaiting trail on multiple charges involving child pornography, sexual assault and more

Louis CK
Crime: cranking his hog in front of women without their consent
Punishment: continues to do stand up i guess?

« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 04:02:10 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #350 on: February 22, 2021, 04:00:58 pm »
But I'm asking you.

Gina Carano was cancelled.  Whether it was just or not I don't think has any relevance to whether someone was cancelled.  I'm sure there's examples of just "cancel culture".
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #351 on: February 22, 2021, 04:03:26 pm »
Gina Carano was cancelled. Whether it was just or not I don't think has any relevance to whether someone was cancelled.  I'm sure there's examples of just "cancel culture".

You're just talking about consequences culture. We don't need a new word for that.
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Offline Black Dog

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Offline wilber

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #353 on: February 22, 2021, 06:06:11 pm »
Just came across this. Why would anyone want to be a teacher or any other government job that deals with today's public?
Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. It was just a bloody haircut and the kid asked for it. What would they have done if the kid had walked into a barber shop and asked for it?

https://www.abbynews.com/news/burnaby-teacher-disciplined-for-giving-grade-6-student-a-requested-buzz-cut/
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline the_squid

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #354 on: February 22, 2021, 06:36:47 pm »
Because the state has a lot more power than the mob?

Here's where this gets you.

It should be noted that this stuff in France has been floated closer to home by Jordan Peterson (who planned to build a website that would have listed courses containing “postmodern neo-Marxist course content,” in an effort to decrease enrollment in those courses) and embraced by government's in Ontario and Alberta (under the guise of "academic freedom").

That's fair, but I doubt a lot of those who rail against cancel culture would agree with that narrow definition.

I think most people would agree that violence or threats of violence to deter speech is bad. But that doesn't cover very many examples of people who've supposedly been "canceled" so I think your definition of the phenomenon, while reasonable, is not the same one that is widespread.

I think the only ‘cancel culture’ I am aware of is the few times some folks have been prevented from speaking with the use of violence, intimidation or the pulling of fire alarms. 

Other than that, I don’t consider anything “cancel culture”.   People now use it for every boycott or firing by a private company when it’s “they’re side”.  Like Graham in this thread. 

That now has turned the argument from a legitimate free speech issue into their hurt feelings issue.

Offline the_squid

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #355 on: February 22, 2021, 08:23:31 pm »
But I'm asking you.

EDIT: so i looked up and here are a few people who have been "cancelled," their crimes and their punishments:

JK Rowling
Crime: transphobia
Punishment: forced to live in a draughty castle in Scotland and sleep on bags of money

Woody Allen
Crime: accused of sexually molesting his stepdaughter, definitely married his much younger other stepdaughter
Punishment: gets to keep making movies long after anyone cared about his movies

R. Kelly
Crime: literal crimes
Punishment: currently awaiting trail on multiple charges involving child pornography, sexual assault and more

Louis CK
Crime: cranking his hog in front of women without their consent
Punishment: continues to do stand up i guess?

I don't think any of those are likely to be what I would consider 'cancel culture'.   I did a very brief search on Rowling and, from what I understand, she and many other authors are decrying 'cancel culture' which they define as being shamed on social media.  I'm not sure I consider that to be the definition.

When did the definition of 'cancel culture' become "any time someone's Twitter feed is flooded with any dickheads"?   I just think then everything starts to fit the definition.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #356 on: February 22, 2021, 08:31:22 pm »
You're just talking about consequences culture. We don't need a new word for that.

Well there is a new word for it because it has increased in recent years due to social media and an increase in political correctness.  You're perfectly free to disagree with the term but that doesn't mean the term doesn't exist.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #357 on: February 22, 2021, 08:34:23 pm »
When Rowling and a host of famous liberals wrote a letter decrying the lack of freedom of speech, or somesuch, it was described as being against 'cancel culture'.  I think Rowling is definitely considered part of it.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #358 on: February 22, 2021, 08:41:53 pm »
I don't think any of those are likely to be what I would consider 'cancel culture'.   I did a very brief search on Rowling and, from what I understand, she and many other authors are decrying 'cancel culture' which they define as being shamed on social media.  I'm not sure I consider that to be the definition.

When did the definition of 'cancel culture' become "any time someone's Twitter feed is flooded with any dickheads"?  I just think then everything starts to fit the definition.

Pretty much from Day One. I applaud you for trying to come up with a specific definition, it's always been a bad faith narrative and that's by design.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #359 on: February 22, 2021, 08:44:45 pm »
Well there is a new word for it because it has increased in recent years due to social media and an increase in political correctness.  You're perfectly free to disagree with the term but that doesn't mean the term doesn't exist.

It's funny you mention "political correctness" when that was what people used to call cancel culture before it was cancel culture. We went through all these same arguments in the '90s and they were dumb then, all that's changed is people now even the a total nobody can embarrass a national columnist and I like to think we're better for it.