Author Topic: The Progressive Thread!  (Read 1939 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #135 on: September 17, 2020, 10:55:30 pm »
There's a thread on r/changemyview about this topic.  The OP has the view that JK Rowling hasn't said anything requiring the current vilification campaign.  The top comment gives a lovely explanation of why her comments are so objectionable to some people.  I won't even try to summarize, but here's the link if you're interested (and if it works).

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/iuof3u/cmv_jk_rowling_isnt_saying_anything_transphobic/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it.  The passage below was my thoughts exactly on the transvestite serial killer in the novel:

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She equates her own experience of abuse with the theoretical abuse of men entering women’s bathrooms to abuse girls and women.  Bathrooms are the Rome of anti-trans arguments, somehow every road leads back to them. Transphobes have this paranoid fantasy of men, disguised as women, being allowed to enter women’s bathrooms where they can...kidnap girls? Pull them into a stall? Just look at them? I really don’t know, the details about exactly what they’re afraid of never come out, but they’re afraid of something.

But it’s asinine, because cis men completely undisguised can already do this. Not legally, but abuse is illegal regardless. If the bathroom is empty, literally anyone can enter regardless of gender. If the bathroom is full, it’s no easier to kidnap or abuse someone than it would be in any other public space.

Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #136 on: September 18, 2020, 05:48:51 am »
Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it. 

I don't agree.  The points JKR raises could be valid, as could the points that the Reddit poster makes.

But the first points lack cites on both sides.

And safety is inextricably subjective and difficult to manage.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #137 on: September 18, 2020, 01:44:52 pm »
And safety is inextricably subjective and difficult to manage.

Agreed, but put my post in context.

I said I evolved on my opinions about JKR when I read about the character in her book.  I no longer feel her agenda is purely feminism and she does have an anti-trans slant, which, as the poster on reddit says, always comes down to the boogie man trans-woman lurking in the bathroom and endangering innocent helpless women. 

As for safety issues, I actually understand the problems created when allowing trans women into gym lockers and bathrooms.  However, the alternative is forcing trans women into men's bathrooms where they are endangered (not to mention humiliated). 

Some women falsely accuse men of r@pe (apparently that word is censored) and ruin their lives and careers and it's horrible but we don't get rid of **** laws because of it. 

I feel the same way about the bathroom issue.  Even though it can be abused, I feel it'll do more good than bad.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 01:46:45 pm by BC_cheque »

Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #138 on: September 18, 2020, 02:07:49 pm »
I said I evolved on my opinions about JKR when I read about the character in her book.  I no longer feel her agenda is purely feminism and she does have an anti-trans slant, which, as the poster on reddit says, always comes down to the boogie man trans-woman lurking in the bathroom and endangering innocent helpless women. 

Yes, I got that.  I feel like the sides in question aren't debating empirically, ie. not trying to reach a conclusion using all the facts available.

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As for safety issues, I actually understand the problems created when allowing trans women into gym lockers and bathrooms.  However, the alternative is forcing trans women into men's bathrooms where they are endangered (not to mention humiliated). 

Yes, that is what I'm talking about with regards to the subjectivity of safety.

"I don't feel safe" isn't a rationale for your rights to trump (sorry) mine.  Actually safety concerns are. 

Also -  safety, in the end, is a benefit weighed against costs too.  Cars are designed with the understanding that they can't be accident proof and cost less than $100K.

 

Online eyeball

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #139 on: September 18, 2020, 04:16:57 pm »
Maybe because they are responsible for a lot of it.
How many lefties exactly? Certainly not all of 'us'.   

Hence my comment about understanding the plight of reasonable conservatives being in the same tent with Q-Anon. I don't imagine that feels any better than being lumped in with a 'they' that needs to include Jessica Yaniv.  That said, why shouldn't the right be held to account for Q-anon?

Offline wilber

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #140 on: September 18, 2020, 05:24:54 pm »
How many lefties exactly? Certainly not all of 'us'.   

Hence my comment about understanding the plight of reasonable conservatives being in the same tent with Q-Anon. I don't imagine that feels any better than being lumped in with a 'they' that needs to include Jessica Yaniv.  That said, why shouldn't the right be held to account for Q-anon?

No, certainly not all.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online eyeball

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #141 on: September 18, 2020, 08:26:36 pm »
The left is about justice and fairness.  The left is about sticking up for the little guy and trying to make things better for the people who are worst off.  That's a good thing.
It certainly is - its just too bad that pinning down what's good is probably the most political thing people do.

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I think all of us would agree that trans people deserve to be safe and to have legal protection against discrimination. 
Yup, the same as any person.

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But some of the things that trans people and their allies are calling for goes beyond what many people see as being reasonable or fair. Even in very liberal California, polling says that most people don't think transwomen should be in prison with cisgender women, or competing in sport against cisgender women.
One would think it would be safe to put specific things like this to the referenda California is famous/notorious for.  A resounding thumbs down from such a liberal state might bring some reason back to the mix.

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I've been reading gender-critical feminists who are quite depressed that their options in the upcoming US election are either vote for the Mango Mussolini or vote for the guy who wants to put transwomen in women's prisons and women's sports.  Trans issues won't be what makes the difference in the US election, but some of them are sufficiently grossed out that they are talking about not voting.


-k
It's a world gone mad alright. I can barely drag my ass out of bed myself these days.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #142 on: September 27, 2020, 01:37:01 am »

Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat.


I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.





Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #143 on: October 01, 2020, 01:59:04 am »
I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

Oh wow! Good for you! You've found an anecdote!  How exciting for you!

 -k

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #144 on: October 01, 2020, 07:29:32 pm »
Getting lectured on anecdotes from person who gave a handful of examples of transphobes getting harassed and drew the conclusion that "Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat." 


Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #145 on: October 04, 2020, 04:38:58 pm »
Getting lectured on anecdotes from person who gave a handful of examples of transphobes getting harassed and drew the conclusion that "Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat."

Misogyny on Twitter isn't an anecdote, it's a fact whose existence has been demonstrated by academic research and statistical analysis.  Even Twitter itself readily acknowledges its existence and promises "they need to do better."  Every year for many years they release a statement acknowledging it and promising to do better.

Yesterday Twitter sent out an announcement that tweets wishing for Trump's death would not be tolerated.  Which immediately resulted in mockery, because for women like Ilhan Omar and AOC, wishes for harm and death are a daily occurrence on Twitter.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/03/politics/twitter-trump-policy-ban-the-squad-politics-trnd/index.html

Twitter's safety team must have heard the laughter, because they responded with a thread here:  https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1312498514002243584

"We hear the voices who feel that we're enforcing some policies inconsistently. We agree we must do better, and we are working together inside to do so."
"We’ll continue to respond to concerns about our enforcement through action, not empty words."
(etc)
Which just resulted in more laughter and mockery.  And they deserve mockery.   For them to talk about "continuing" to enforce their policy against wishing harm on anybody so soon after #RIPJKRowling was a worldwide trend is laughable. 

 -k

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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #146 on: October 04, 2020, 05:05:40 pm »
I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

The claim was never that only women suffer abuse on Twitter,  so your ability to find a cisgender male person who is allegedly experiencing a campaign of harassment doesn't disprove what I have argued.     

Also, as you mention, Gu seems to be a questionable character, and maybe this alleged campaign by racist white doctors trying to destroy him isn't all it seems.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/5/18147216/eugene-gu-twitter-social-justice-activism-abuse-sexual-assault


I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

And trying to extrapolate Dr Gu's sad story into the conclusion that you've drawn here is spectacularly stupid. 

Certainly the abuse does discriminate. The alt-right have used Twitter to silence and intimidate their targets for years, and that is an issue that has been widely discussed.  What is much less discussed is that the social justice mob use the same tactics.  And progressives either don't know, or they're willing to rationalize or excuse it. So that's what I wanted to point out in this thread. Because nothing says "progressive" like threatening to rape or kill a woman for voicing her opinion.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #147 on: October 04, 2020, 05:58:54 pm »
There's a thread on r/changemyview about this topic.  The OP has the view that JK Rowling hasn't said anything requiring the current vilification campaign.  The top comment gives a lovely explanation of why her comments are so objectionable to some people.  I won't even try to summarize, but here's the link if you're interested (and if it works).

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/iuof3u/cmv_jk_rowling_isnt_saying_anything_transphobic/g5m3qfi/

Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it.  The passage below was my thoughts exactly on the transvestite serial killer in the novel:
Quote
She equates her own experience of abuse with the theoretical abuse of men entering women’s bathrooms to abuse girls and women.  Bathrooms are the Rome of anti-trans arguments, somehow every road leads back to them. Transphobes have this paranoid fantasy of men, disguised as women, being allowed to enter women’s bathrooms where they can...kidnap girls? Pull them into a stall? Just look at them? I really don’t know, the details about exactly what they’re afraid of never come out, but they’re afraid of something.

But it’s asinine, because cis men completely undisguised can already do this. Not legally, but abuse is illegal regardless. If the bathroom is empty, literally anyone can enter regardless of gender. If the bathroom is full, it’s no easier to kidnap or abuse someone than it would be in any other public space.

I'm going to respond to this in the Gender thread.

 -k

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #148 on: October 04, 2020, 11:21:40 pm »
Kimmy does not comply with the Groupthink.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.  BC is the center of the hive, outliers are rare.  We will call you a racist homophobe TERF and an alt-right Trump supporter until there is compliance.  You have been warned.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline MH

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Re: The Progressive Thread!
« Reply #149 on: October 05, 2020, 06:40:15 am »
Kimmy does not comply with the Groupthink.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.  BC is the center of the hive, outliers are rare.  We will call you a racist homophobe TERF and an alt-right Trump supporter until there is compliance.  You have been warned.

Stop living in fear.  You are free to express your opinions, as always.