Author Topic: The End of the World Thread  (Read 881 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2019, 03:09:06 pm »
You realize that the consumption pattern is more varied on both the macro and micro level than wind gusts or clouds.
Apples and oranges. The daily variable in power consumption is a low frequency wave with small high frequency spikes. You can see the difference in the 5 min graphs:
http://www.ieso.ca/power-data

Wind and solar are fine as long as the high frequency spikes don't exceed the spikes that the system already deals with. As the percentage of wind/solar increases these spikes increase and the cost of supplying peaking power increases. Try to run the entire system off renewables and the cost would be unmanageable.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 03:13:03 pm by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2019, 04:17:35 pm »
Try to run the entire system off renewables and the cost would be unmanageable.

Nobody is suggesting running the entire system off renewables, yet you repeat that premise continually. Cost however is a different situation, artificial cost is completely manageable, and that is the cost you only seem to recognize.

Offline TimG

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2019, 04:25:15 pm »
Nobody is suggesting running the entire system off renewables, yet you repeat that premise continually.
Don't be disingenuous. Lots of people suggest that whenever they oppose gas/nuclear/hydro development projects. And whether you like or not cost does matter. When people can't afford to heat their homes in winter they will not accept the notion that they should suffer so some wealthy telsa driver can feel good about themselves.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 04:29:51 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2019, 09:26:17 am »
I am not one printing story after story in the media claiming these things are all about climate change. Why are you whinging about my opinion which is, simply put, a better explanation of the available facts than we get from the media?
Your opinion is not a better explanation though. It's just your own, uneducated opinion.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #64 on: May 08, 2019, 09:31:21 am »
It is called playing the odds given the information we have now.
You don't seem to understand the odds. You're arguing that there could be a complete 180 degree reversal of the trend lines we're seeing on various metrics of environmental collapse. That on its own is myopic, but where you make it completely asinine is this wild ass belief that the trends will completely reverse if we do nothing.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2019, 09:32:31 am »
Whose "probabilistic approach" will you accept?
He supports the "do nothing" approach always. He doesn't support the probabilities.

Offline TimG

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2019, 09:40:26 am »
You don't seem to understand the odds. You're arguing that there could be a complete 180 degree reversal of the trend lines we're seeing on various metrics of environmental collapse. That on its own is myopic, but where you make it completely asinine is this wild ass belief that the trends will completely reverse if we do nothing.
What is asinine is your ridiculous belief that significant reductions in CO2 emission are remotely plausible. Everything you say about my opinion applies to you when it comes to this question. The main difference is I acknowledge the uncertainties involved and try to balance them. You just call people names if they don't share your delusional belief that significant  reductions in global CO2 emissions are possible. In the end adaptation will be the the *only* option on the table. The only question is whether we **** away trillions on various scams designed to pretend we are doing something or do we focus on what we will actually need to do?

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2019, 09:42:37 am »
Did I say anything about CO2 emissions here? I sure didn't, but you seem to have a whole position laid out for me and are arguing against that. What is that called again?

You care to address the problem with your do nothing argument? Namely, the fact that you suggest climate change will reverse itself, in spite of the trend lines, even if we do nothing? That's clearly an indefensible position and certainly doesn't "play to the probabilities" as you claim.

Offline TimG

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2019, 09:52:10 am »
Did I say anything about CO2 emissions here? I sure didn't, but you seem to have a whole position laid out for me and are arguing against that. What is that called again?
If you jump into a discussion the assumption is you are building on the arguments. It is not my fault if you don't read what was written before and interject some irrelevant commentary.

You care to address the problem with your do nothing argument? Namely, the fact that you suggest climate change will reverse itself, in spite of the trend lines, even if we do nothing? That's clearly an indefensible position and certainly doesn't "play to the probabilities" as you claim.
Speaking of strawmen. I never said or suggested that climate would 'reverse itself'. My argument is also not to "do nothing". My argument is we well need to adapt and resources should be spent on adaptation. CO2 reductions for the sake fof CO2 reductions are pointless and often harmful.

Offline Omni

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2019, 10:14:19 am »
If you jump into a discussion the assumption is you are building on the arguments. It is not my fault if you don't read what was written before and interject some irrelevant commentary.
Speaking of strawmen. I never said or suggested that climate would 'reverse itself'. My argument is also not to "do nothing". My argument is we well need to adapt and resources should be spent on adaptation. CO2 reductions for the sake fof CO2 reductions are pointless and often harmful.

You actually think weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels while we can still (somewhat) breath the air is "harmful"? P...lease!

Offline Granny

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2019, 12:55:08 pm »
You actually think weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels while we can still (somewhat) breath the air is "harmful"? P...lease!

The only people who refuse to acknowledge the damage of burning fossil fuels are those whose paycheque depends on it.
I think they are best ignored.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2019, 01:23:09 pm »
If you jump into a discussion the assumption is you are building on the arguments. It is not my fault if you don't read what was written before and interject some irrelevant commentary.
Speaking of strawmen. I never said or suggested that climate would 'reverse itself'. My argument is also not to "do nothing". My argument is we well need to adapt and resources should be spent on adaptation. CO2 reductions for the sake fof CO2 reductions are pointless and often harmful.

That's your argument is it?

Except that you said "we just don't know what will happen in the future" when people suggest any sort of adaptation away from the status quo (in spite of your insistence on adaptation), which sounds an awful lot like "let's do nothing and hope nature sorts itself out." If it's not, then the failure isn't my understanding but on your communication.

Offline TimG

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2019, 01:44:12 pm »
Except that you said "we just don't know what will happen in the future" when people suggest any sort of adaptation away from the status quo (in spite of your insistence on adaptation), which sounds an awful lot like "let's do nothing and hope nature sorts itself out." If it's not, then the failure isn't my understanding but on your communication.
Nonsense. Adaptation is what humans have done for millennia and it is the only way out of whatever problem will occur. CO2 emission reduction is not going to happen no matter how many grand pronouncements are made. That is why CO2 reduction for the sake of reducing CO2 emissions is stupid policy - especially if policy is designed to allow people to pretend to reduce emissions with carbon trading.

It is clear that you value doing pointless things just so you can feel better cause "we are doing something". I have no patience for such hypocritical nonsense.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2019, 04:27:03 pm »
Adaptation is what humans have done for millennia and it is the only way out of whatever problem will occur.

I am so glad that the idiots that followed that stupid notion before my time are long gone. I grew up along the St. Lawrence in Montreal, and it was a sewer that nobody would go near. Luckily more recent generations have decided that adaptation was a moronic idea, and decided to work on cleaning it up over the past few decades. I first swam in it about 3-4 years ago, and there is a beach opening up in my hometown this summer (last one in the area closed in the 1940's). It still has a long ways to go, but is immensely better than what I grew up with and already far better than many other rivers and lakes I have been around.
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Offline wilber

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Re: The End of the World Thread
« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2019, 05:00:42 pm »
Nonsense. Adaptation is what humans have done for millennia and it is the only way out of whatever problem will occur. CO2 emission reduction is not going to happen no matter how many grand pronouncements are made. That is why CO2 reduction for the sake of reducing CO2 emissions is stupid policy - especially if policy is designed to allow people to pretend to reduce emissions with carbon trading.

It is clear that you value doing pointless things just so you can feel better cause "we are doing something". I have no patience for such hypocritical nonsense.

Like we adapted to the bubonic plague and Spanish influenza. No we didn't, in the first case we got rid of the source,(ring a bell?) in the second, we are just waiting for the next one.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC