Author Topic: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?  (Read 6082 times)

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guest7

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2018, 11:16:47 am »
How so ?

From the long term influence to love one's country brought up by dia, through the religious methods mentioned, to the re-education camps in the Cambodian jungles during the Khmer Rouge regime, I would imagine they are many.  I've never been a teacher, but I imagine the methods available to them are fewer.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2018, 11:40:10 am »
I would imagine they are many.  I've never been a teacher, but I imagine the methods available to them are fewer.

I imagine so.  But it sounds like neither of us know.

guest7

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2018, 11:45:01 am »
I imagine so.  But it sounds like neither of us know.

I don't know much.  I  just have opinions, and most of them are not that well informed.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2018, 11:51:44 am »
I don't know much.  I  just have opinions, and most of them are not that well informed.

I don't know if that's true.  I guess I'm not informed enough.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2018, 02:44:28 pm »
That's the definition of national culture but really if you're talking about the intangible "What is culture ?" question... it is probably more related to tribal behaviours that are more closely imprinted on our biology.

National culture is a subversion and an attempt to direct those tribal impulses towards people who share our citizenship.

You can't survive against adversity as a nation-state without a shared sense of values, culture and beliefs. That doesn't mean everyone is the same, just that, for want of a better term, they have certain higher level beliefs in common. Subversion? I don't know. We're all tribal, and if you want to call it 'subversion' to want to draw everyone within a national boundary into that same general higher level mindset then okay.

Jonathan Haidt, in a talk I've posted before, talked about this a lot, and mentioned the strange emotional feeling people get, including him, a liberal, when previous outsiders embrace these higher level beliefs. He specifically referenced the Khan family, the father and mother of Captain Khan who died in the US military. You'll remember him as talking about the American consittution and holding a copy in the air as he harrangued Trump at the DMC. They're born Pakistani and are Muslims. Haidt actually chokes up when he talks about that. And when he talks about a similar situation in the UK (the talk was in the UK) of immigrants showing loyalty and dedication to the royal family he still chokes up.

So yes, there is a powerful sense of common bonding with people who share our sense of national identity, call it what you will. And in the abscence of that sense of common bonding we get resentment, anger, and violence.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 02:46:30 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2018, 02:58:57 pm »
You can't survive against adversity as a nation-state without a shared sense of values, culture and beliefs. That doesn't mean everyone is the same, just that, for want of a better term, they have certain higher level beliefs in common. Subversion? I don't know. We're all tribal, and if you want to call it 'subversion' to want to draw everyone within a national boundary into that same general higher level mindset then okay.

Ok.  I don't know if what you said is basic, generalized or even true.  There's no counter example anyway so let's move on.

Quote
Jonathan Haidt, in a talk I've posted before, talked about this a lot, and mentioned the strange emotional feeling people get, including him, a liberal, when previous outsiders embrace these higher level beliefs. He specifically referenced the Khan family, the father and mother of Captain Khan who died in the US military. You'll remember him as talking about the American consittution and holding a copy in the air as he harrangued Trump at the DMC. They're born Pakistani and are Muslims. Haidt actually chokes up when he talks about that. And when he talks about a similar situation in the UK (the talk was in the UK) of immigrants showing loyalty and dedication to the royal family he still chokes up.

Damn it.  I keep forgetting to watch that.  Sorry, if you have infinite patience please post it again :(

My examples of this are:

- Feeling moved by the French national anthem after I lived there 1 year despite not being French
- Burningman's idea of "inclusion" which actual counter tribal thinking while reinforcing, in the same way laws that decree against "mob justice" can be agreed to as a common tribal "moral" that goes against tribalism...
- Feeling inspired by GW Bush after 9/11 and talking to American liberals who had never felt patriotic until that day

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So yes, there is a powerful sense of common bonding with people who share our sense of national identity, call it what you will. And in the abscence of that sense of common bonding we get resentment, anger, and violence.

I think if we sense that it's not there, we get angry.  As suspicious as I am about nationalism, I still say it's a "subversion" of tribalism, which is a necessary part of the human experience and therefore "good".

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2018, 03:46:23 pm »
This is taken from a much longer discussion with Nick Clegg.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2018, 05:55:57 pm »
1. That's kind of a blanket statement.  There were certainly strong initiatives to teach manners, values, and patriotism if 1950s health films are to be blieved.

2. Maybe a better idea for you to provide examples of morality that was/wasn't taught in the "good old days" vs today. 

I don't think things have changed very much, in terms of social values being assumed as "good" and being taught.  But maybe the problem is that we haven't considered "dissent" enough. 

A friend of mine grew up in the 1950s and proclaimed himself an Athiest when very young.  After a fight with the school, he was permitted to say nothing during Lord's Prayer ( in a public school mind you ).  But they had to fight.

Several decades ago and prior, I think the emphasis on morals/values centered around the church and christian values of the time.  That still remains(somewhat) in religious schools, but since modern progressivism began in the 1960's, teaching has also incorporated those leftwing ideological values too. 

If we're going to extend into the post-secondary level, there is a clear bias towards leftwing ideologies amongst instructors.  In university I was exposed to more Marxist thought and academic articles that featured a Marxist analysis than I did from Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, and Frederich Nietzsche combined.  That's not counting leftwing economists like Jeffrey Sachs and Joseph Stiglitz.

Another way teaching indoctrinates is simple bias.  All sources have biases, it's virtually unavoidable.  ie: Every history book has a bias because it's emphasizing certain events and narratives & perspectives while necessarily ignoring others. 50 years ago how many American textbooks emphasized Christopher Columbus as a brutal rapist? It's as much what is not taught as it is what is taught.

Unless you're teaching religion in a religious school, do not teach my child any morals or values other than what's normally followed under the law (no hitting other kids, no stealing their things etc).
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2018, 06:03:10 pm »
So give us an example of a student being failed because they disagree with an opinion.

In university art/humanities/social sciences courses, if you write an esaay with a premise that is fundamentally opposed to the ideology of the person marking it, you can often suffer in the grading, because the marking is completely subjective to the strength & validity of your argument.  I've seen it happen to myself and others so many times, from instructors and TA's on both the left and the right.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2018, 06:06:49 pm »
Unless you're teaching religion in a religious school, do not teach my child any morals or values other than what's normally followed under the law (no hitting other kids, no stealing their things etc).

Do onto other as you who have them do onto you - nah, nothing about crime there
It is better to give than to receive - nah
Don't judge others, lest you be judged - nah

Yes, those leftists certainly do have weird ideas

guest7

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2018, 06:08:40 pm »
Do onto other as you who have them do onto you - nah, nothing about crime there
It is better to give than to receive - nah
Don't judge others, lest you be judged - nah

Yes, those leftists certainly do have weird ideas

Leftists?  I never knew I was such a Commie...

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2018, 07:07:27 pm »
Hmm, a very difficult question. Indoctrination or teaching? So... difficult to decide....


"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2018, 08:13:45 pm »
Do onto other as you who have them do onto you - nah, nothing about crime there
It is better to give than to receive - nah
Don't judge others, lest you be judged - nah

Yes, those leftists certainly do have weird ideas

What are you talking about? I don't understand.

My point was, for public schools, teaching morality, values, and ideology is not your job as a teacher.  Your job is to teach facts and truth and the tools to discover it, not to teach your biased subjective opinions.  In religious schools, i guess it's implied that you can.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:18:12 pm by Moonlight Graham »
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2018, 09:10:02 pm »
My point was, for public schools, teaching morality, values, and ideology is not your job as a teacher.

That may be your opinion, but many would disagree. For example the Center on Education Policy says:

From the early days of the nation, public education has played a vital role in American democratic  society.  In  addition  to  preparing  young  people  for  productive  work  and fulfilling lives, public education has also been expected to accomplish certain collective missions aimed at promoting the common good. These include, among others, preparing  youth  to  become  responsible  citizens,  forging  a  common  culture  from  a  nation  of
immigrants, and reducing inequalities in American society.

In recent years, however, some of these public-spirited missions of education have been neglected and are in danger of being abandoned. Most current efforts to reform public education have focused on increasing students’ academic achievement—without a doubt, a central purpose of schooling. But the reasons given for why it’s important to improve achievement often stress individual or private economic benefits (such as preparing youth for good jobs in a global economy), rather than public benefits (such as preparing youth for active citizenship in a democratic society).


I believe we have some similar challenges in Canada.

reference: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED503799.pdf
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 09:11:51 pm by ?Impact »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2018, 11:27:42 pm »
That may be your opinion, but many would disagree. For example the Center on Education Policy says:

From the early days of the nation, public education has played a vital role in American democratic  society.  In  addition  to  preparing  young  people  for  productive  work  and fulfilling lives, public education has also been expected to accomplish certain collective missions aimed at promoting the common good. These include, among others, preparing  youth  to  become  responsible  citizens,  forging  a  common  culture  from  a  nation  of
immigrants, and reducing inequalities in American society.

In recent years, however, some of these public-spirited missions of education have been neglected and are in danger of being abandoned. Most current efforts to reform public education have focused on increasing students’ academic achievement—without a doubt, a central purpose of schooling. But the reasons given for why it’s important to improve achievement often stress individual or private economic benefits (such as preparing youth for good jobs in a global economy), rather than public benefits (such as preparing youth for active citizenship in a democratic society).


If you're in a public school in Canada, obviously you're going to teach kids about our country and its core values, ie: rule of law, the Charter, our democratic system etc.  But public teachers shouldn't be pushing certain pet policies over others, ie: taking sides on abortion or gun control or income inequality or taxation etc.  You can introduce those issues to students, and show the different sides of the arguments happening in the news and legislation, & allow the kids a platform to express their views, but that's a lot different than pushing a certain point of view.  That isn't the point of teaching, the point is to give students the tools and information to make those decisions for themselves. 

Molding our kids into ie: progressive social justice advocates or rightwing libertarians as per the teachers' personal ideological beliefs has no place, it's government propaganda, & I'd pull my kids out of any class/school that did that.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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