Author Topic: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?  (Read 4413 times)

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2018, 03:23:46 pm »
You failed to support your point, that's all. Now on to greener pastures.

Like I said, it was anecdotal.  You can believe me or not.  Doesn't change anything, doesn't worry me.  The point remains.

Thinking on, I almost never support anything.  I just opine.
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Offline MH

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2018, 03:39:01 pm »
Depends on which decade and which branch of education. We said the lords prayer at the start of each day as well as singing Oh Canada. That was probably indoctrination of a sort. I don't think they focused much on values or morals except in Religion class (until I exited the Catholic system after Grade Six). We had the traditional classes: English, Science, Math/Arithmetic, History, Geography. There really wasn't much room in there to make us all love one another and respect other cultures.

Manners and strong conformity were hallmarks of the bygone era.  It wasn't until I was out of school that they started saying it was ok to have long hair, pink hair or not hair.

The 'respect other cultures' stuff was of course added gradually over time, and not just in schools.  The Catholic church used to pray for the 'conversion' of the Jews when I was a kid.

Quote

Going from my memory, morals and how we should treat each other in theory was taught in Religion class in Catholic school, but once in public school we got nothing. You were always expected and required to be polite and respectful to adults, of course, and not curse. And your behavior towards other students as individuals likewise fell under a pretty stern rule of however the teacher felt you should behave at any given moment in any given case.

'Stern' is the key.  We often hear about how lax morals are today and I can accept that as a given.

Offline MH

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2018, 03:40:06 pm »

We are indoctrinated from birth to believe our country is the best, regardless of which country we are from.  I don't think indoctrination needs to have an 'or else' attached, but only the repitition of ideas with little or no contrary information.

Good example.  Who has another ?

Offline MH

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2018, 03:45:28 pm »

I would say if you 'teach' something with an attitude which says "This may not be disagreed with, altered or contradicted" and it CAN be disagreed with, altered or contradicted in some manner, then you're indoctrinating.

That SEEMS like a good definition but I'll bet there are counter examples that we would all agree need to happen, such as some values and behavioural things.  Is it indoctrination?

I'm starting to think that indoctrination is either "teaching I don't like" or "teaching values that you should have a choice to adopt"

The 2nd one means - GUESS WHAT - we're in politics.  They should, IMO, teach people that gay people EXIST.  That isn't indoctrination, it's a fact.  They should, IMO, teach people that gay people are people 'like any other' in that their orientation is not viewed prejudicially by the government.

If people want to teach their kids not to be gay, or eat fish on Fridays .... and teach it in the home then that's how it will happen.

"Be nice to the brown people" is actually a value that also should be taught, as civics.  If we descend to tribalism, then our society (my city) is done for.
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2018, 03:59:28 pm »
That SEEMS like a good definition but I'll bet there are counter examples that we would all agree need to happen, such as some values and behavioural things.  Is it indoctrination?

I'm starting to think that indoctrination is either "teaching I don't like" or "teaching values that you should have a choice to adopt"

The 2nd one means - GUESS WHAT - we're in politics.  They should, IMO, teach people that gay people EXIST.  That isn't indoctrination, it's a fact.  They should, IMO, teach people that gay people are people 'like any other' in that their orientation is not viewed prejudicially by the government.

If people want to teach their kids not to be gay, or eat fish on Fridays .... and teach it in the home then that's how it will happen.

"Be nice to the brown people" is actually a value that also should be taught, as civics.  If we descend to tribalism, then our society (my city) is done for.

Be nice to the good people, not so nice to the not so good, regardless of their colour would surely be a better civics lesson.

Of course, if be nice to the brown people regardless was the lesson, one could always pretend to get it.

Indoctrination isn't teaching one doesn't like.  I daresay many who are indoctrinated into obscene religions or fringe political movements like it right off the bat. The indoctrination starts with the convincing of those who don't.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2018, 04:40:14 pm »
Be nice to the good people, not so nice to the not so good, regardless of their colour would surely be a better civics lesson.

Of course, if be nice to the brown people regardless was the lesson, one could always pretend to get it.

Indoctrination isn't teaching one doesn't like.  I daresay many who are indoctrinated into obscene religions or fringe political movements like it right off the bat. The indoctrination starts with the convincing of those who don't.

Again you mix apples and oranges. Being "nice to brown people" is a choice to not allow racism to guide how you interact with people from the outset. Assessing them on their merits or lack of once you know them is a different issue altogether.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2018, 04:49:46 pm »
Again you mix apples and oranges. Being "nice to brown people" is a choice to not allow racism to guide how you interact with people from the outset. Assessing them on their merits or lack of once you know them is a different issue altogether.

To you maybe.  You presume to know what I meant.  Indoctrination to treat people equally due the colour of their skin rather than the content of their character is not something to which I would give in without a fight.  Hey, me and MLK!

The problem with our differing views on this is that you assume that if one is not nice to people due to them being brown then them being brown is the reason one is not nice to them.  Not me!

Edit>  I guess I should admit that being nice to people is my default position anyway.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 04:53:51 pm by bcsapper »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2018, 05:03:49 pm »
To you maybe.  You presume to know what I meant.  Indoctrination to treat people equally due the colour of their skin rather than the content of their character is not something to which I would give in without a fight.  Hey, me and MLK!

The problem with our differing views on this is that you assume that if one is not nice to people due to them being brown then them being brown is the reason one is not nice to them.  Not me!

Edit>  I guess I should admit that being nice to people is my default position anyway.

Treating people unequally due to the color of their skin is racism. Um, your middle statement is a complete contradiction of itself.
Other than that not much to comment on. 

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2018, 05:17:13 pm »
Treating people unequally due to the color of their skin is racism. Um, your middle statement is a complete contradiction of itself.
Other than that not much to comment on.

I put it in brackets for you, like algebra!

It's the opposite of racism.

The problem with our differing views on this is that you assume that if one is not (nice to people due to them being brown) then (them being brown is the reason one is not nice to them).  Not me!
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2018, 05:17:39 pm »
'Stern' is the key.  We often hear about how lax morals are today and I can accept that as a given.
Consider: What are morals? Who defines them? Are they more lax or have they just changed/adapted over time?

Offline MH

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2018, 06:26:17 pm »
Consider: What are morals? Who defines them? Are they more lax or have they just changed/adapted over time?

They are part of culture.  You are right that they have *changed* and I want to point out that 'lax' doesn't mean 'bad'.  The drive to conformity was a stultifying aspect of life as I understand and that's gone.

But I also feel that with gains there are losses. 

Lots of things are worse today, and lots of things are better.

 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2018, 06:31:13 pm »
Indoctrination is just teaching with an "or else!" on the end.

No, it's usually much more subtle than that.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2018, 06:43:56 pm »
Consider: What are morals? Who defines them? Are they more lax or have they just changed/adapted over time?

Some people need to be handed morals from on-high, or at least told that is where they come from.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2018, 06:44:40 pm »
Some people need to be handed morals from on-high, or at least told that is where they come from.

Indoctrinated!
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2018, 06:45:35 pm »
No, it's usually much more subtle than that.

Yes, I'm sure it is.
Time for bed said Zebedee...