Author Topic: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?  (Read 4413 times)

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 02:16:36 pm »
Don't be silly.  I can't believe that either you or MH are that dense.  So you know what I mean, you're just pretending that you don't.  So you can pretend!  Of course, this isn't an exam.

That said, I don't believe there were actual exams in the examples I mentioned.  Just attendance and general agreement of the principles.  I was led to believe that the way to advance was to nod sagely and not rock the boat.

Then its not indoctrination.  Indictrination doesn't mean "pretend" to believe, it means you do believe.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 02:24:36 pm »
Then its not indoctrination.  Indictrination doesn't mean "pretend" to believe, it means you do believe.

I agree.  That was the point I was making to MH.  Failing a student who doesn't agree with opinions is one way to get them to pretend to agree with the opinions.

It doesn't work with the laws of thermodynamics or the quadratic equation or other stuff like that, of course.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 02:29:39 pm »
I agree.  That was the point I was making to MH.  Failing a student who doesn't agree with opinions is one way to get them to pretend to agree with the opinions.

It doesn't work with the laws of thermodynamics or the quadratic equation or other stuff like that, of course.

So give us an example of a student being failed because they disagree with an opinion.

Offline Goddess

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 02:30:23 pm »
I don't think indoctrination needs to have an 'or else' attached, but only the repitition of ideas with little or no contrary information.

I think this is correct.

"Teaching" would be imparting information or ideas with facts and evidence, where discussion and questioning is welcomed.

"Indoctrination" would be communication of beliefs not supported by evidence, and not be welcoming to any discussion or questioning.  Indoctrination usually involves purposely omitting contrary information.

I think this is why "teaching" has a positive connotation and "indoctrination" has more of a negative connotation.
"A religion without a Goddess is half-way to atheism."

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 02:34:24 pm »
So give us an example of a student being failed because they disagree with an opinion.

I can't.   Like I said, the examples I know about were smart enough to pretend.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 02:42:03 pm »
I can't.   Like I said, the examples I know about were smart enough to pretend.

I didn't think you could.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 02:43:49 pm »
Which is what or what is which ?

Depends. If you're teaching Math, Science, History, Geography and English, you're teaching facts which can't be contradicted.
You can teach global warming in such a way. There are certain facts which cannot be contradicted about global warming/climate change, so you can teach it, provided you stick with that. If you add in information which is mere supposition and which can be intelligently and logically contradicted, but state otherwise, then that is indoctrination.

I would say if you 'teach' something with an attitude which says "This may not be disagreed with, altered or contradicted" and it CAN be disagreed with, altered or contradicted in some manner, then you're indoctrinating. And I don't mean contradicted in the way loons disagree with 9/11.

Because it's so clearly a part of morality, and part of the reason this topic arose, let's look at sexuality, and how it is taught in schools. If you're teaching the physical processes of sexuality you cann't be contradicted for they are all fact. However, schools also teach sex and sexuality from a moral perspective which often contradicts the moral teachings  of churches, mosques and temples. The new curriculum (and I had to go reading about this since I don't really care that much) introduces sex ed in grade three. That's a hell of a lot younger than we got it, which I believe was grade six. And the first thing they start off with is 'the diversity of gender identity and sexual orientation". This is probably the basis of most of the complaints since most churches, temples and mosques consider male-female sex within marriage to be the only morally acceptable choice. The question then becomes, who has a right to be teaching these kids sexual morality, the schools or their parents and religious groups? And also, is teaching it as fact, at the age of eight, too young? Ie, are these kids too young to question or are they simply sponges for whatever they're told.


"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 02:51:58 pm »
1. That's kind of a blanket statement.  There were certainly strong initiatives to teach manners, values, and patriotism if 1950s health films are to be blieved.

Depends on which decade and which branch of education. We said the lords prayer at the start of each day as well as singing Oh Canada. That was probably indoctrination of a sort. I don't think they focused much on values or morals except in Religion class (until I exited the Catholic system after Grade Six). We had the traditional classes: English, Science, Math/Arithmetic, History, Geography. There really wasn't much room in there to make us all love one another and respect other cultures.

Quote
be a better idea for you to provide examples of morality that was/wasn't taught in the "good old days" vs today.

Going from my memory, morals and how we should treat each other in theory was taught in Religion class in Catholic school, but once in public school we got nothing. You were always expected and required to be polite and respectful to adults, of course, and not curse. And your behavior towards other students as individuals likewise fell under a pretty stern rule of however the teacher felt you should behave at any given moment in any given case.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 02:58:15 pm »
Depends. If you're teaching Math, Science, History, Geography and English, you're teaching facts which can't be contradicted.
You can teach global warming in such a way. There are certain facts which cannot be contradicted about global warming/climate change, so you can teach it, provided you stick with that. If you add in information which is mere supposition and which can be intelligently and logically contradicted, but state otherwise, then that is indoctrination.

I would say if you 'teach' something with an attitude which says "This may not be disagreed with, altered or contradicted" and it CAN be disagreed with, altered or contradicted in some manner, then you're indoctrinating. And I don't mean contradicted in the way loons disagree with 9/11.

Because it's so clearly a part of morality, and part of the reason this topic arose, let's look at sexuality, and how it is taught in schools. If you're teaching the physical processes of sexuality you cann't be contradicted for they are all fact. However, schools also teach sex and sexuality from a moral perspective which often contradicts the moral teachings  of churches, mosques and temples. The new curriculum (and I had to go reading about this since I don't really care that much) introduces sex ed in grade three. That's a hell of a lot younger than we got it, which I believe was grade six. And the first thing they start off with is 'the diversity of gender identity and sexual orientation". This is probably the basis of most of the complaints since most churches, temples and mosques consider male-female sex within marriage to be the only morally acceptable choice. The question then becomes, who has a right to be teaching these kids sexual morality, the schools or their parents and religious groups? And also, is teaching it as fact, at the age of eight, too young? Ie, are these kids too young to question or are they simply sponges for whatever they're told.

You can't "teach" somebody not to be gay for instance, if they in fact are. The fact it was ignored when you were in grade 6 simply drove the concept underground and likely made life more difficult for those people who didn't fit the church type molds. And I seriously doubt discussions of such issues caused anyone to change their own sexual orientation.
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Offline MH

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 03:02:13 pm »
Don't be silly.  I can't believe that either you or MH are that dense.  So you know what I mean, you're just pretending that you don't.  So you can pretend!  Of course, this isn't an exam.

That said, I don't believe there were actual exams in the examples I mentioned.  Just attendance and general agreement of the principles.  I was led to believe that the way to advance was to nod sagely and not rock the boat.

Why are you lumping me in that response ?

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2018, 03:07:06 pm »
I didn't think you could.

Well done!  Are you saying I'm wrong?
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 03:09:42 pm »
Why are you lumping me in that response ?

Yes, sorry about that. 

I thought one of the responses from Omni (the first one, as it happens) was from you.  I just went back and looked now in response to your question here. 
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 03:14:03 pm »
Well done!  Are you saying I'm wrong?

I'm saying you failed to answer the question.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 03:15:25 pm »
I'm saying you failed to answer the question.

It wasn't a question, it was a request. 

If you think I'm wrong just say so.  It won't bother me.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 03:21:04 pm »
It wasn't a question, it was a request. 

If you think I'm wrong just say so.  It won't bother me.

You failed to support your point, that's all. Now on to greener pastures.