Author Topic: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?  (Read 4413 times)

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Offline MH

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Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« on: February 15, 2018, 12:15:44 pm »
Which is what or what is which ?

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 12:25:46 pm »
Indoctrination is just teaching with an "or else!" on the end.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 12:30:52 pm »
Not a bad start.

So if I teach about the facts of climate change... that is teaching not indoctrination.

I had a Jewish GF who had parents complain that she was teaching about the holocaust. 

Can you see how this all goes grey really fast ?

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 12:35:19 pm »
If you teach about anything it's teaching.  If you seek to prevent others from disagreeing with you it's indoctrination. 

I don't see your point yet about your girl friend and her parents.

It's okay to teach about the holocaust.  It's okay to fail a student who doesn't get it.  It's not okay to force them to get it.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 01:37:26 pm »
Isn't failing them a way to force them to get it ?

Offline MH

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 01:40:15 pm »
1. The job of teaching a child morality was deemed to belong to family and church.

2. At some point, however, the progressives in education decided it was the job of the schools to teach morality - their morality, not what the parents of the child in question might consider to be proper morality. 

1. That's kind of a blanket statement.  There were certainly strong initiatives to teach manners, values, and patriotism if 1950s health films are to be blieved.

2. Maybe a better idea for you to provide examples of morality that was/wasn't taught in the "good old days" vs today. 

I don't think things have changed very much, in terms of social values being assumed as "good" and being taught.  But maybe the problem is that we haven't considered "dissent" enough. 

A friend of mine grew up in the 1950s and proclaimed himself an Athiest when very young.  After a fight with the school, he was permitted to say nothing during Lord's Prayer ( in a public school mind you ).  But they had to fight.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 01:48:50 pm »
Isn't failing them a way to force them to get it ?

It could be a way of forcing them to pretend to get it.

I know of a couple of people who were forced to pretend to get something in order to move on in their classes. 

Is that indoctrination though?  The beliefs haven't changed.  If anything, the opposing belief has been reinforced by the contempt felt for the fanaticism of the person in charge.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2018, 01:51:52 pm »
It could be a way of forcing them to pretend to get it.

I know of a couple of people who were forced to pretend to get something in order to move on in their classes. 

Is that indoctrination though?  The beliefs haven't changed.  If anything, the opposing belief has been reinforced by the contempt felt for the fanaticism of the person in charge.

"Pretend to get it"? The schools I went to had things called exams. You either pass or fail.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2018, 01:52:22 pm »
1. That's kind of a blanket statement.  There were certainly strong initiatives to teach manners, values, and patriotism if 1950s health films are to be blieved.

2. Maybe a better idea for you to provide examples of morality that was/wasn't taught in the "good old days" vs today. 

I don't think things have changed very much, in terms of social values being assumed as "good" and being taught.  But maybe the problem is that we haven't considered "dissent" enough. 

A friend of mine grew up in the 1950s and proclaimed himself an Athiest when very young.  After a fight with the school, he was permitted to say nothing during Lord's Prayer ( in a public school mind you ).  But they had to fight.

I remember swearing on the bible when I joined the BC government.  Along with my two friends.  I'm an Atheist, and they're Buddhists.  But we just wanted to get out of there and have some lunch.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 01:53:14 pm »
"Pretend to get it"? The schools I went to had things called exams. You either pass or fail.

That's sweet.  When were you last at school?
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 01:56:31 pm »
That's sweet.  When were you last at school?

About 6 months ago. I have to pass a written as well as a practical exam annually to keep my job. And you can't pretend.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2018, 02:01:07 pm »
About 6 months ago. I have to pass a written as well as a practical exam annually to keep my job. And you can't pretend.

Don't be silly.  I can't believe that either you or MH are that dense.  So you know what I mean, you're just pretending that you don't.  So you can pretend!  Of course, this isn't an exam.

That said, I don't believe there were actual exams in the examples I mentioned.  Just attendance and general agreement of the principles.  I was led to believe that the way to advance was to nod sagely and not rock the boat.

Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2018, 02:05:07 pm »
Don't be silly.  I can't believe that either you or MH are that dense.  So you know what I mean, you're just pretending that you don't.  So you can pretend!  Of course, this isn't an exam.

That said, I don't believe there were actual exams in the examples I mentioned.  Just attendance and general agreement of the principles.  I was led to believe that the way to advance was to nod sagely and not rock the boat.

I'm not following your meandering. Maybe try again. This is an exam.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2018, 02:13:04 pm »
I'm not following your meandering. Maybe try again. This is an exam.

Well, I haven't been in school since 1990, and then it was technical.  No Humanities classes.  I understand things are different now, in that some classes simply involve discussions of social issues and don't rely on exams so much. 

But like I said, you already know.  One way of refusing to acknowledge such is to use words like "meandering", and exhortations to "try again".
Time for bed said Zebedee...

guest4

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Re: Teaching vs Indoctrination ?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2018, 02:15:06 pm »
A friend of mine grew up in the 1950s and proclaimed himself an Athiest when very young.  After a fight with the school, he was permitted to say nothing during Lord's Prayer ( in a public school mind you ).  But they had to fight.

In the 80s, I had to get special permission for my daughter to leave the classroom during the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. 

We are indoctrinated from birth to believe our country is the best, regardless of which country we are from.  I don't think indoctrination needs to have an 'or else' attached, but only the repitition of ideas with little or no contrary information.