Canadian Politics Today

  8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:
The government does care about security.  And that's one example where individual rights don't matter.  It's everybody or nobody, and so everybody is surveilled.

Moonlight said:
That's not even remotely how the legal system works, or the Charter.  You have a fundamental misunderstanding of liberal democracy in this regard.  You're literally describing 1984.  Due process rights are among the most basic legal rights we have.  Section 8 of the Charter (the 4th amendment in the US Bill of Rights) means the government does not have permission to snoop into your private life or property or your accounts/transactions with private businesses or seize your private property unless they have evidence to suspect you have committed a crime, and even then they have to go to a judge to get a warrant.  This is to prevent abuse of power and arbitrary search or seizure because this is exactly what they did when these rights didn't exist.

No reasonable person wants an RCMP officer to come into their house and go through their drawers because they just don't like the way you look, or because you gave them a suspicious stare on the street.  They aren't even allowed to step on your property if you tell them they aren't allowed, nor any private individual. They aren't even allowed to search your car without consent, a warrant, or a crime happened.  We don't have any reason to be afraid of them, Going into people's email accounts and tracking their movements is no different.  Police harass & intimidate people enough as it is, many have fragile egos and go on power trips, as you know by following the news or watching Youtube.  We should be surveilling police and government 24/7, not the other way around.  They're public servants, police have no expectation of privacy on the job, they're accountable to us, not the other way around.  Police and politicians commit more crimes than the average person.  There's thousands of examples on Youtube of this abuse & harassment caught on camera.

Due process laws exist because this is what government authorities did unchecked in the age of kings and queens where we had no rights, and what they do in countries like China & Russia.  Government authorities harass people they didn't like, ie: journalists, annoying neighbours, political opponents etc, and confiscate property without reason.  This is literally what they do today in China.  We have shed blood to get these rights for ourselves after living like China does.  I know all of this because I studied the history of legal rights at the post-secondary level.

Michael Hardner said:
There's too much talk about rights today and not enough about responsibility.  We're citizens not customers in a store.

Moonlight said:
In our personal lives yes.  But our only responsibility as citizens is to obey the law.  The government also has the responsibility to obey the law.

Michael Hardner said:
People who spend ten minutes watching a YouTube video feel it's their right to spew garbage and get offended pretty quickly if you tell them to stop.  The marketplace if ideas requires bad ideas to die.

Moonlight said:
That's their right.  Who is the arbiter of what is a "good" vs "bad" idea?  The government?  Silicon Valley?  You?  The marketplace of ideas means ideas exist on their own merit and people will judge them as "good" or "bad" themselves, with arguments and counterarguments free to be exchanged, they don't need smug self-righteous folks to think for them.  We're grown adults.  Most people do a pretty good job.  Trump was not re-elected, most people got their COVID vaccines.

Michael Hardner said:
The digital ID should be discussed in terms of real risks and benefits by grown ups and the conspiracy folks should know their place.

Moonlight said:
Their ideas exist on their own merits.  If they have no evidence for their arguments they can be rejected.  You sound like an authoritarian dictator.  Dictatorships don't work because one person is not smarter than the collective consensus of the majority of tens of millions to determine their own destiny.  We're already better off without a forum moderator interfering in our affairs constantly.  "Thread drift" has not harmed the other forum whatsoever, or this one.  People don't need to be constantly controlled and micromanaged.  Conspiracy theorists have their place, they are constantly questioning authority and are always investigating, they don't trust government or big pharma etc, they're our devil's advocates. I don't want to live in a society only made up of sheep who are always in compliance.

they're not forthcoming with how they do it.

Our security apparatus and surveillance...

We also have to acknowledge that we live in a liberal democracy.  We are all born free until government restricts our natural freedom using violence (police using fists, clubs and guns to drag lawbreakers away and forced behind bars) to enforce their laws.  This coercion is sometimes necessary, but is not to be taken lightly.  It might be better for "the greater good" if people needing organs or blood can have government force others against their will to give organs and blood to save lives, it doesn't mean they should have that right.

Can't they make that law today?  Do you want gov to peer inside everyone's bank accounts to make sure the rich aren't getting money under the table?  They could use cash.  Ban cash because its not trackable?

They do it unconstitutionally.  They are corrupt.  Like I said, everyone has the responsibility to follow the law.  How far are you willing to go to make sure everyone does?

They are unconstitutional also, except the Charter guarantees nothing, it isn't worth the paper its written on if a judge can determine anything as a worthy infringement "in a free and democratic society", which is the most vague & subjective nonsense ever written.  But maybe red light cameras are worth the infringement?

You think its unreasonable to say that having public cameras on every street corner and satellites above and the gov peering into our emails, texts, tapping our phones, and tracking all of our movements for the sake of "public safety and the rule of law" is akin to a mass surveillance police state like 1984, where thought police exist?  Would you consider the fascist dictatorship of CCP China a dystopia?  They have the most public cameras in the world (google it).

 
 What if left-wing activists were very protective of these rights, and what if they were so offended by your ideas that they would want them banned from Youtube and twitter, and professors and celebrities and Hardner who mouthed them would be cancelled?  Does this give you a new perspective on the importance of free speech?  The moment the mob turns on you, and they decide your opinions are offensive to the moral mainstream, you're done, and so is any discussion.

Sure let's do it.  Your ideas (in all honesty) offend me greatly but i'm willing to discuss them.

Do you now understand what it might be like to have a dissenting opinion challenging that?  How does it feel?  I bet it doesn't feel very good...