Author Topic: Superhero Movies  (Read 787 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2018, 02:19:49 pm »
Keep in mind that a Rotten Tomatoes score is just a ratio of positive reviews to negative reviews.  Black Panther has a Rotten Tomatoes rating of something like 95% right now, but that might mean that 19 critics gave it 2.5 stars out of 4, and one critic gave it 2.0 stars out of 4.  A very "meh" movie can get a very high RT score provided that

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Offline TimG

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2018, 02:23:11 pm »
Yes and no.
Audience reviews are from people who were already predisposed to go see the film.
I only really look at reviews for movies that I am already predisposed to view so that subset of the audience likely means more to me than you. That sometimes critics reviews are good enough to get me to look at something other than my usual fare but that is based on why they give the review - not simply the number of stars.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2018, 02:46:53 pm »
So, Black Panther apparently did ok this weekend, to the tune of over $200 million dollars.

And white people are getting beaten up by black people when they go see it.

No, not really. But people are posting fake pictures and stories of white people being beaten up by racist blacks who tell them it's not their movie and they shouldn't be going to see it. Which leaves the question of why people are doing this. I get that racists won't see the movie. I don't get that they would bother to make up fake accounts and do fake stories on it. And I don't remember this ever happening before. This isn't racism, this is propaganda by people who know it's lies. So I'm wondering if it's the Russians again.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2018, 03:15:48 pm »
for example audience reviews from "Saw IV" reflect the opinions of people who are already inclined to go see movies in the kidnap-torture-dungeon genre

Even if I was into that genre, since I haven't seen Saw 1-3 I doubt I would see the fourth installment of a franchise without knowing the characters, etc. I would start at the beginning. I am not into superhero movies, but given the reviews I might give BlackPanther a try but I would probably wait for the DVD.

Offline TimG

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2018, 03:23:59 pm »
Sorry, Michael, "superhero fatigue" has been put on hold.
As much as the critics overdo "female/black" superhero rhetoric these movies do deliver a "hook" that brings people back to the theatres. Without it superhero fatigue would have settled in by now (I know I have no interest in another avengers movie but black panther piques my interest).

I would expect disney Marvel to look for the next "hook" to keep the genre alive. My bets are on a gender bending superhero.

Online Bubbermiley

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2018, 05:13:27 pm »
The problem with a gender bending hero is that comic book heroes tend to require a lengthy pop culture gestation period before they made movie worthy. All the significant superhero movie characters (save maybe Deadpool) have been around for at least 50 years, including Black Panther.

Weird that it predated by several months the founding of the Black Panther Party. They tried changing his name to Black Leopard as a result, but that didn't have the same ring to it.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2018, 07:47:40 pm »
I only really look at reviews for movies that I am already predisposed to view so that subset of the audience likely means more to me than you.

I agree, I don't think there are many times reviews got me to see something I wouldn't normally consider watching.

That sometimes critics reviews are good enough to get me to look at something other than my usual fare but that is based on why they give the review - not simply the number of stars.

This is also a good point. I read reviews more to find out what the movie is like.

The last one where reviews got me to change my mind was Thor: Ragnarok.  I hadn't planned on it, but after reading the reviews I got the impression that it was a very different movie from what I had expected. I figured, you know, super punch-outs and so on... but the reviews made it sound like the comedy and the characters were really the main focus. The review that made up my mind said something along the lines of "the best buddy road-movie since Bing Crosby and Danny Kaye..."  and I really did enjoy it.  And like the critics who gave it strong reviews, I enjoyed it because it delivered something that felt quite different from a lot of the superhero fare.

Conversely, the latest Spiderman reboot got positive reviews but I didn't go anyway.  The reviews basically made it sound like it was a good reboot that delivers exactly what you'd expect from a Spiderman movie, and I didn't give a shit because I'm all Spidermanned out.  I don't think I've seen the last 8 or 9 Spiderman movies.

...and on that note...
As much as the critics overdo "female/black" superhero rhetoric these movies do deliver a "hook" that brings people back to the theatres. Without it superhero fatigue would have settled in by now (I know I have no interest in another avengers movie but black panther piques my interest).

I would expect disney Marvel to look for the next "hook" to keep the genre alive. My bets are on a gender bending superhero.

I think there's probably some amount of audience that has been really longing to see a non-white superhero movie, much in the same way that so many women who wouldn't normally be at a superhero movie loved Wonder Woman.

But I can't really picture a transgender hero putting butts in seats. Not enough to promise a box office success, anyway.

I think the "hook" you speak of can take many different forms.

 -quality.  If something gets amazing reviews.  "The Dark Knight" got incredible reviews, and did incredible box office as well. Of course, it also had...

 -beloved characters.  Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine. We keep seeing these guys in movies because audiences love them.  Audiences didn't exactly love George Clooney as Batman, or Andrew Garfield as Spiderman, but even these "duds" still did pretty good box-office.  I can't imagine how the next Wolverine will do, now that Hugh Jackman has hung up the adamantium claws. He's the only guy who's ever been Wolverine on screen, and it's going to be a thankless job to replace him. I digress.  Even less successful reboots with these characters still did good box office.  Even with Henry "Mr Plywood" Cavill in the lead role, the current run of Superman movies have been somewhat successful.

 -something fresh.  Movies like Guardians of the Galaxy and Deadpool were big successes because they brought something completely different to the genre. They both had that "wow!" factor, in very different ways.

 -classic source material.  I include this only as a maybe.  I personally really loved "The Watchmen" movie, based on the 12-issue comic book series that I also really loved.  On the other hand, Fox really fucked up trying to bring classic X-Men story arcs like "Days of Futures Past" to the big screen and I have little doubt that the upcoming (?) Phoenix saga is going to end up equally fucked up.  "Batman vs Superman" borrowed heavily from the classic "Dark Knight" limited series by Frank Miller, and likewise fucked up pretty bad.  Trying to adapt beloved source material into movies is apparently a pretty mixed bag.

I don't think inventing more far-out concepts for movies is necessarily the "hook" that will keep people coming to the theatres. In a lot of cases, I think the "classics" are classics for a reason, and that characters like Spiderman and Batman and The Hulk and Wolverine keep showing up on our screens because they have an inherent appeal.  Black Panther and Wonder Woman might as well, but up until now nobody has been willing to risk making a big-budget movie about them. It's a little sad that in present day making a movie about a black or female hero is seen as an "angle".

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2018, 07:57:44 pm »
The problem with a gender bending hero is that comic book heroes tend to require a lengthy pop culture gestation period before they made movie worthy. All the significant superhero movie characters (save maybe Deadpool) have been around for at least 50 years, including Black Panther.

I'm not sure about that...  I mean, I know the Guardians of the Galaxy were around back then, but I don't think they were a household name. I think probably only hardcore comics nerds really knew about them.

Weird that it predated by several months the founding of the Black Panther Party. They tried changing his name to Black Leopard as a result, but that didn't have the same ring to it.

 I wonder if they considered changing his cat costume to be a black leather vest, a black beret, and sunglasses.


On a related note, I almost fell off of my couch laughing when the Netflix "Luke Cage" show managed to work the hilarious old-school "Power Man" costume into one scene through a series of coincidences.



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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2018, 08:07:24 pm »
The characters might have been around for many decades, but nobody has ever actually made a movie about them that made any money.  Before Wonder Woman, the last female superhero movie was a Supergirl movie sometime in the early 1980s, and it did so poorly that nobody has ever tried again.  As for a black superhero, there's been sidekicks like Falcon-Suit Guy or Replacement Iron Man Guy, but never the lead. Unless you count "Blade", but probably most people didn't even know Blade is a comic book and just thought it was a movie about Wesley Snipes beating the crap out of vampires.

The notion that you could make a Black Panther movie or a Wonder Woman movie and people would actually go to the theatre and pay money to watch it is a relatively recent discovery for Hollywood, and one that goes against decades of conventional industry wisdom.

This is all because there's hardly any female or black solo superhero books.  The reason is because since the 1940's, young white males have been the main audience for comic book superhero power fantasies.  Black panther was created by 2 male Jews (Stan Lee & Jack Kirby).

The box office has no issues with female protagonists, see Hunger Games or Aliens.  Black people, ok fair enough not many have made a gazillion dollars.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2018, 08:10:26 pm »
So, Black Panther apparently did ok this weekend, to the tune of over $200 million dollars.

That's not just huge, that's huge even in comparison to most other Marvel movies.  I'm quite surprised. I thought it would do "ok" or "pretty good", but I had no idea that they'd have a blockbuster of this scale. I'm not sure whether the overwhelmingly positive reviews or an appetite for this character in particular would be the biggest driver, but whichever it is, it's pretty phenomenal.


Sorry, Michael, "superhero fatigue" has been put on hold.

Hollywood also seems to not put out good blockbuster movies between New Years and April-ish.  You have tons of people sitting at home during winter with nothing to do, you'd think it would be the a great time to come out with great movies, but it's usually a deadzone.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2018, 08:18:46 pm »
But I can't really picture a transgender hero putting butts in seats. Not enough to promise a box office success, anyway.
Depends how it is done. Thor 'in drag' would bomb. A shape-shifting alien from a race with no concept of gender though...
Maybe not as a lead but a major character could work.

I was looking the current calendar:
http://www.slashfilm.com/marvel-phase-4-movie-calendar/

Looks like nothing but sequels until 2022.
But I would assume the a 'Blade' reboot will be added soon now that Black Panther has done well.

It's a little sad that in present day making a movie about a black or female hero is seen as an "angle".
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2018, 09:50:59 am »
This is all because there's hardly any female or black solo superhero books.  The reason is because since the 1940's, young white males have been the main audience for comic book superhero power fantasies.  Black panther was created by 2 male Jews (Stan Lee & Jack Kirby).


The characters have been around, but (with the exception of Wonder Woman) mostly as supporting cast. I think "Power Man" had his own comic book in the 1970s... I believe the character was invented when "Blaxploitation" movies became popular.

Wonder woman has been around for decades, and the reason nobody tried to make a movie sooner is that nobody thought it would make any money until recently.  They did a Supergirl movie in 1985 and it tanked, and studio execs said "see? The market for this is young men, and young men don't want to see a movie about a chick."  A lot of us were worried that Wonder Woman might not do well either, and that it would be another 30 years before anybody tried again.

The box office has no issues with female protagonists, see Hunger Games or Aliens.  Black people, ok fair enough not many have made a gazillion dollars.

Well, Hunger Games was very recent, and James Cameron was way ahead of his time in putting characters like Sarah Connor and Ripley on our screens. There's been lots of movies about female characters... but very few of them have been action-adventure type movies. The thinking is that it's mostly young dudes who go to these movies, and that young dudes want to see movies where young dudes are the hero.

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2018, 10:48:28 am »
The thinking is that it's mostly young dudes who go to these movies, and that young dudes want to see movies where young dudes are the hero.

Have audiences changed, or was supergirl just a poor movie?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2018, 01:23:15 am »
Have audiences changed, or was supergirl just a poor movie?

I'm not old enough to remember what 1985 audiences were like and I've never seen that movie. But I gather it wasn't very good, and I suspect audiences have changed as well.  And a third factor, I think, is that the studio exec's perception of the audience has changed too.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Superhero Movies
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2018, 01:52:08 pm »
There's another one this weekend: Black Panther.

I am NOT going to see this, nor am I slightly interested in the impact but I AM wondering:

Is anybody on here interested ?

I did finally go to the big movie yesterday. I told my date it was a documentary about the Black Panther Party.

I did enjoy the movie.  Some of the early portions of the movie were so "Lion King" that I expected Elton John to burst into song.  But things quickly improved.   The movie delivers everything you go to this sort of film to see.  Great action sequences, spectacular visuals, excitement, drama, a light comic touch... basically all the hallmarks of the most successful Marvel movies are here.

Does this movie have an "impact" beyond being tremendously successful and demonstrating that audiences will go out to see movies about black characters?  (Did Wonder Woman?)

During the recent Oscars, there was a clip of director Ryan Coogler saying something like "I went to Wonder Woman and there were grown women weeping with emotion, and I wanted Black Panther to make black people feel the same way."   Did he succeed? I'm not the right person to ask.  I did feel that initially watching a movie with an almost entirely black cast was somewhat odd, and that very quickly this aspect of it completely vanished and you become immersed in the movie.  Perhaps this is how non-white audiences feel every time they go to a movie.

As far as a greater social message... it focuses on King T'Challa's realization that the main villain is to some degree a monster of his family's own making. He feels guilty for his father's role in turning his back on the child who would grow up to become a menace, and in a broader context makes him realize that it's time that his country do more and stop turning its back as well. It is, I guess, a call for people to do more for each other and consider that the things you turn a blind eye to today could come back to haunt you.

But anyway, I did enjoy the movie, I think it completely stands on its own as a great piece of entertainment, regardless of whatever social and cultural implications one wishes to consider.

 -k
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