Author Topic: Straight Pride  (Read 226 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2018, 04:25:46 pm »
Conservatism comes from fear, which is what young people lack.

Conservatism comes from knowing there is a potential downside, not just an upside, to every decision, and making intelligent assessments rather than throwing yourself off a cliff and hoping for the best.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2018, 04:27:55 pm »
Who remembers their school days when the everyone teased the kids by calling them "straight".

Nobody is saying there is an equivalency between the way some minority groups are treated by greater society and the members of majority groups. You're all so wrapped up in your zealous political correctness you simply don't care to understand human nature. Which, come to think of it, is almost the definition of progressives.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Omni

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2018, 04:48:23 pm »
Nobody is saying there is an equivalency between the way some minority groups are treated by greater society and the members of majority groups. You're all so wrapped up in your zealous political correctness you simply don't care to understand human nature. Which, come to think of it, is almost the definition of progressives.

No actually what you just suggested is that progressives do understand human nature. That I agree with and which is likely why they have been voted into power most often in the western hemisphere.
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Offline MH

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2018, 06:19:58 pm »
I'm sure the boomers said the same thing about their parents. And I'm sure their parents said the same about the generation before them. Older people generally become more conservative. It comes from wisdom, which younger people largely lack.

Yes, but... It's true also.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2018, 06:34:24 pm »
No actually what you just suggested is that progressives do understand human nature. That I agree with and which is likely why they have been voted into power most often in the western hemisphere.

The only reason the left gets voted for is because half the population pays no taxes and always votes for the people who are willing to take money away from others and give it to them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline MH

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2018, 08:03:40 pm »
I don't think enough people get benefits, nor do enough make a direct connection between their vote and social policy for this to add up.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2018, 04:13:05 am »
I don't give a **** about a flag but as an observer of humanity I am not surprised that the focus on identity groups and identity politics leaves some people feeling miffed.

This seems to be no different than those people who say that if there can be Black pride why can't there be White pride and that sort of thing. Identity politics divides people into separate groups, and you can't constantly tell people in one group to be proud of themselves and then demand people in another group not be.

The reason that "gay pride" is a thing is that historically gay people had to hide in the closet and be ashamed of who they are.  Gay pride is gay people saying "we're not going to hide in the closet and we're not going to be ashamed anymore."    The idea that people who've never had to hide in the closet need to have their own pride event is just clueless and laughably sad.   Every day is "straight pride" day.


This sort of thing is always framed as "I'm not attacking gay people, I'm just standing up for straight people!"  Like, standing up against what?  Are straight people under attack from some unseen foe?  Is it gay rights that straight people feel threatened by?

Politicians do the same. Not much in Canada anymore, but definitely in the US still. "I'm not attacking gay people, I'm defending traditional marriage!"  Defending it against what? Defending traditional marriage by fighting gay marriage?  How does that make sense?   (ever notice that in the US the biggest defenders of "traditional marriage" include never-married childless spinster Ann Coulter, serial adulterer Newt Gingrich, and multiple-kids-out-of-wedlock abstinence advocate Bristol Palin? I think it's funny.)

Which brings us to the identity politics issue. The notion that only the left is involved in identity politics is wrong.   Now, it's certainly not as prominent in Canada as in the US (and maybe that's why the Canadian right wing is less successful than the US right wing.)   In the early days of the newly united federal Conservative Party, Jason Kenney's ethnic outreach strategy was telling conservative ethnic groups "hey, we hate gay marriage too! vote for us!"  In the US there's this ongoing meme of "Christian persecution" as Republicans tell Christian voters, especially evangelicals, that their religion is under attack.  There was a huge gay rights controversy in Indiana in 2015 when Mike Pence and the Republicans there signed a "religious freedom" law that essentially legalized discrimination against gay people if it was done for religious reasons.  Was that an identity politics episode? Yes. Was it the gay people and their allies who were playing identity politics?  No, it was the Republicans pandering to evangelical voters who were playing identity politics.  And this is a message you hear over and over in US politics (and sometimes in Canadian politics as well.)   "Christians are under attack from gay rights."  The politicians promoting that message are certainly playing identity politics, but maybe you don't recognize it as such because it's not a small minority being pandered to.

 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2018, 06:36:51 am »
Right, but as SJ points out - it's the reaction to people asking for equal rights that makes this backlash.

What if I asked it this way: Do you have any negative reaction to people like Trudeau using identity politics as a lever to his goals ?  As such, do you have any suggestions as to how to proceed ?  I do think there are identity 'zealots' who want to make government about nothing except advancing such rights, but you can't suggest that they tone it down, or at least I don't think I can.

My approach would be more of a 'quiet march forward'.  Move rights forward, constantly, but work with all parties to do it without bringing it into the political spotlight.  After all, doesn't fighting over rights make it difficult to advance rights ?  And isn't there a kind of velocity at which we can move forward without engendering disunifying movements ?

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2018, 07:37:35 am »
Right, but as SJ points out - it's the reaction to people asking for equal rights that makes this backlash.
Exactly it. All lives matter doesn't exist without black lives matter. It's a reaction to it, a rejection of it. The straight pride flag doesn't exist, except in response to gay pride, as a rejection of it. **** these people and their intolerance and hate.

Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2018, 07:49:38 am »
But I don't want to **** them. They're ugly.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2018, 09:49:28 am »
I don't think enough people get benefits, nor do enough make a direct connection between their vote and social policy for this to add up.

Are you kidding? Everyone with kids gets benefits, just to start. Trudeau was nowhere in the last election until he came out with his new slew of promises to cut taxes to the 'middle class', and offered up a number of big spending promises. Why do you think the whole of Atlantic Canada voted Liberal? It was because the Liberals promised more welfare (they call it EI out east) than anyone else.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2018, 09:54:02 am »
The reason that "gay pride" is a thing is that historically gay people had to hide in the closet and be ashamed of who they are.  Gay pride is gay people saying "we're not going to hide in the closet and we're not going to be ashamed anymore."    The idea that people who've never had to hide in the closet need to have their own pride event is just clueless and laughably sad.   Every day is "straight pride" day.

Yeah, I understand the historical context. But 'gay pride' is a victim of its own success. The gay community is among the most successful in Canada. A lot of people now wonder why gay people need to have a parade and talk about gay pride. Memories are short. To a lot of people now gays are not a discriminated against minority and they don't even remember when they were.

And I'm not saying that is entirely realistic but you have to remember most people don't put a hell of a lot of thought into this sort of thing.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2018, 09:57:04 am »
Exactly it. All lives matter doesn't exist without black lives matter. It's a reaction to it, a rejection of it. The straight pride flag doesn't exist, except in response to gay pride, as a rejection of it. **** these people and their intolerance and hate.

BLM is perhaps the most intolerant group around, aside from the likes of the Klan, and led, at least in Canada, by an avowed racist. And their claims are all bullshit, the sniveling of people who refuse any responsibility for their own behaviour.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2018, 10:52:27 am »
I was one of those who questioned the continuing need for things like the pride parade etc, but lately I have come to question that questioning. Angela Merkel recently said that when the last survivor of the war dies, we will find out if we have learned anything from history. The recent rise of populism is telling me that we are painfully slow learners and will need constant reminders of past injustices if we are not to repeat them.
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Offline MH

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Re: Straight Pride
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2018, 12:57:28 pm »
I think people pay attention to tax cuts but not 'goodies'.
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