Author Topic: Sex Work Culture  (Read 259 times)

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Offline MH

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Sex Work Culture
« on: April 28, 2018, 11:54:30 am »
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/04/25/26093525/on-sexual-deprivation-sex-workers-incels-and-violence

I haven't given this much scrutiny but it seems like a passable version of modern liberal morality, ie. one that would withstand criticism

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Another cultural transformation that’s long overdue: adults who do sex work of their own free will shouldn’t be stigmatized (or treated like criminals) and adults who hire adults doing sex work of their own free will shouldn’t be stigmatized (or treated like criminals). The former cultural transformation will solve the “incel” problem; the latter will solve the problem of sexual deprivation, i.e. involuntary celibacy.

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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2018, 01:36:26 pm »
Of course they can be "stigmatized".  I wouldn't date a hooker for various reasons.  Isn't that stigmatizing?   We make value judgements on people all the time, and should continue to do so. 

The legal issue is completely separate. 

Offline MH

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2018, 02:13:09 pm »
  I wouldn't date a hooker for various reasons.  Isn't that stigmatizing?   We make value judgements on people all the time, and should continue to do so.   

Are there other professions you wouldn't date ?

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2018, 02:23:40 pm »
Are there other professions you wouldn't date ?

Of course. 

Offline MH

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 02:50:28 pm »
Of course.

Why 'of course' ?

I don't know that I would outlaw dating anyone because of their job.

Not all people are just like you.

Offline msj

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 07:26:00 pm »
Here is a good thread related to this.

I think legalizing can help a bit but there is much it will not solve.

https://twitter.com/latenitenoah/status/990089047803494400?s=21


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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 10:41:00 pm »
Why 'of course' ?

I don't know that I would outlaw dating anyone because of their job.

Not all people are just like you.

I’m sure I could think of professions....   ummm...  pro body builder maybe?   Hooker was already mentioned....   ummm....  anything in the Trump administration.

Offline MH

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2018, 08:41:40 am »
I’m sure I could think of professions.... 

I can't think of any except maybe somebody paid specifically to kill... I can't see being with someone like that but still I wouldn't say it's a rule.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2018, 11:16:50 am »
For reasons of purely moral/ethical/philosophical compatibility I don't think I'd even consider attempting to have a relationship with a preacher, rabbi, imam, shaman, guru, witch-doctor, houngan, swami, or similar. I don't think I would attempt to build a relationship with a "homeopathic doctor" or similar type of snake-oil salesperson either.  Philosophical differences are one thing, but when it gets to the level of "your entire life is built around something I consider total bullshit" or "you make a living trying to harm people and con them out of their money" I don't think it's something I could get past.

As for the main topic of the thread...  I'm skeptical that visiting a prostitute once in a while would actually cure what's really wrong with these incel types.

Shortly after Elliot Rodger went on his rampage trying to kill sorority girls, I read an article from an author who had read and watched Rodger's online rantings and ravings.  And for all the talk about how much Rodger hated women, it turns out that he actually wrote and talked about women very little.  What Rodger hated wasn't women, it's that other men had success with women, and he didn't. From his writings it seemed as if Rodger didn't actually even attempt to talk to women or ask them for dates. He didn't write about being rejected by women... if it happened, he didn't mention it, and you'd think something like that would merit a mention.  But he wrote a lot about the kind of men he saw women being attracted to. He wrote about their gym physiques and their clothing style and his assumption that they were dumb and superficial and less intelligent and less worthy of affection than himself.  He was angry and bitter that guys he considered his inferior had success with women, while he didn't. It made him feel second-class.

Ultimately, what Rodger was looking for wasn't a relationship with a woman, it was a status symbol. He felt like having an attractive girlfriend would show the world that he wasn't second class. Like a fancy car.  Instead of "when you arrive in a Mercedes, they'll know you've arrived," it's "when you arrive with a pretty girl on your arm, they'll know you've arrived."

These incel guys ultimately feel that they've been made second-class citizens. They feel that they've been deprived of something that other people have a right to. They self-identify as incels because, in their hearts, they believe that they're unlovable. Ultimately the problem here is low self-esteem.  And visiting a prostitute for sex once in a while isn't going to cure that.


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Offline MH

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2018, 03:13:00 pm »
  I don't think I would attempt to build a relationship with a "homeopathic doctor" 

Guess what fate is going to send you next ?  The most vivacious, lovely homeopathic doctor ever....

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2018, 05:38:06 pm »
These incel guys ultimately feel that they've been made second-class citizens. They feel that they've been deprived of something that other people have a right to. They self-identify as incels because, in their hearts, they believe that they're unlovable. Ultimately the problem here is low self-esteem.  And visiting a prostitute for sex once in a while isn't going to cure that.

We're seeing a lot of talk now about misogyny in society, as represented by these people. I think you're more correct. These people don't hate women. They hate that they don't  have any women.  I'm not sure there even is such a thing as misogyny. Maybe in some of the Muslim cultures like Saudi Arabia you have misogyny. But even though I've used that term myself to describe some of their beliefs, I don't think they really hate women either. Their cultural/religious beliefs simply mean they think women are inferior, should be forced to obey men, and be kept away from any jobs or activities where they might be led into 'immorality'. I'm not really sure there are any sane men who "hate" women.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2018, 05:51:54 pm »
The idea that they 'hate' women seems less accurate than 'they see women as attributes of status' as Kimmy described.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2018, 06:01:58 pm »
The idea that they 'hate' women seems less accurate than 'they see women as attributes of status' as Kimmy described.

Yeah, but there's nothing all that strange about that. Lots of men and women see having a boyfriend/girlfriend as an important status thing.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2018, 06:17:11 pm »
Yeah, but there's nothing all that strange about that. Lots of men and women see having a boyfriend/girlfriend as an important status thing.

It may not be strange but it's wrong to see social attributes as signs of personal value.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Sex Work Culture
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2018, 08:01:28 am »
Of course they can be "stigmatized".  I wouldn't date a hooker for various reasons.  Isn't that stigmatizing?   We make value judgements on people all the time, and should continue to do so. 

The legal issue is completely separate.
Of course you make value judgments. Your values are socially constructed though and as such can change over time. The argument is that the stigma around sex work is one of those values that needs to change. If you wouldn't date a sex worker, that's fine. When the general culture is to treat them as sub-human that's the problem, not your personal dating preferences. Take polyamourism for example. You wouldn't date someone who's polyamourous, if that's not something that you're open with. However, you shouldn't be trashing people or treating them as immoral garbage for choosing to have open relationships that are honest and truthful with their partners. When the general pattern of behaviour is that most people in society treat them like ****, it's a problem. In sex work, this has led to violence and abuse that is not regulated by police because the workers' profession is stigmatized. Their abuse is not taken seriously as a result.
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