Author Topic: Right/Left Identity Politics  (Read 1744 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2017, 07:06:04 pm »
There were several studies cited in those links.  See, that's the kind of thing that's not open for debate.
The studies presented the facts regarding the differential. There were no facts regarding the reason for the differential - only opinions. Opinions are always a matter for debate. As I said, you need to stop pretending opinions that you like are facts.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:14:33 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8563
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2017, 07:06:28 pm »
Name one.

Oh, Nazism would be a fairly obvious start. They got pretty well whooped 70 years ago...do you think they don't exist anymore?

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2017, 07:08:47 pm »
Speech should be free - but everything has limits.
But that is the point. Rights often come into conflict and it is necessary to prioritize rights. The problem with the left is they seem to think that the priorities that they think are important are absolute truths when the are really nothing but a reflection of ideology.

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3462
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2017, 07:15:28 pm »
The studies presented the facts regarding the differential. There were no facts regarding the reason for the differential

Ahh, so it's just a coincidence, then.

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3462
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2017, 07:15:56 pm »
But that is the point. Rights often come into conflict and it is necessary to prioritize rights. The problem with the left is they seem to think that the priorities that they think are important are absolute truths when the are really nothing but a reflection of ideology.

How is that any different than people on the right?

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3462
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2017, 07:17:40 pm »
No, not everything you think would be nice is a human right. It is not a human right to sit on your ass and do nothing and have me feed, cloth and shelter you.

You are no more the arbiter of that than I am - there are people far better place to decide these things, and they've made those decisions.
 People have the right to not be discriminated against.

Quote
Really? And who gets to set the limits? You? Progressives? Because we've already seen that to progressives, the only speech they feel should be protected is theirs.

That's why we have representative democracy, a written document of constitutional rights, and courts of law.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2017, 07:18:04 pm »
Oh, Nazism would be a fairly obvious start. They got pretty well whooped 70 years ago...do you think they don't exist anymore?

The German Nazi party got whipped and everyone of any major importance in it was executed. Germany today is most definitely not Nazi any  more. So yes, it worked.

Your standard seems to be that if a bear attacks you and you kill it, well, you haven't really settled the matter just because you live to a rope old age and die in your sleep. After all, there are still bears.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2017, 07:22:07 pm »
You are no more the arbiter of that than I am - there are people far better place to decide these things, and they've made those decisions.
 People have the right to not be discriminated against.

It might be a law that you can't discriminate against someone for certain reasons -although we all discriminate against people constantly for other reasons -  but that does not make it a human right. Short people get discriminated against. Is that a human right problem? So do fat people. So do ugly people, people with glasses and people with unpleasant skin conditions.

Quote
That's why we have representative democracy, a written document of constitutional rights, and courts of law.

Right, but then the whole question of this thread relates to just how representative that democracy is, and who might be getting angry because they think it's not representing them, doesn't it?

And to answer one of MHs question, left wingers saying "This is the way it is because I say it is." is not something likely to sooth the anger of those people who feel left out.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:37:04 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2017, 07:35:17 pm »
How is that any different than people on the right?
The right is more willing to accommodate a much greater diversity of opinion. The right does not argue that the left should be prevented from expressing their opinions.

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8563
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2017, 07:36:40 pm »
The German Nazi party got whipped and everyone of any major importance in it was executed. Germany today is most definitely not Nazi any  more. So yes, it worked.

Your standard seems to be that if a bear attacks you and you kill it, well, you haven't really settled the matter just because you live to a rope old age and die in your sleep. After all, there are still bears.

Ah no. If we continue to use your simple little standard then if we killed all the bears, I should never have to worry about bears again. Charlottesville is probably the most recent example of where that falls apart. But certainly not the only one.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2017, 07:39:08 pm »
Ah no. If we continue to use your simple little standard then if we killed all the bears, I should never have to worry about bears again. Charlottesville is probably the most recent example of where that falls apart. But certainly not the only one.

Did all Germans need to get killed to end Nazi rule and the threat of it? No. Just most of the Nazis. Do all people except the right need to be killed in MHs theoretical civil war question? No, just the extreme left. Most of the rest of the Left would  likely wind up spending this civil war hiding and hoping no one came for them.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:40:41 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2017, 07:41:27 pm »
Of course you have no evidence for this statement. This is just one of those things you have been told to believe so often that you don't question it.

What do you think white nationalism is all about? What do you think the Nazis and KKK stand for?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2017, 07:45:00 pm »
What do you think white nationalism is all about? What do you think the Nazis and KKK stand for?
Reducto ad Absurdum. Nazis/KKK today are powerless clowns that have miniscule support. We only hear about the small number of people because the left wants an excuse to suppress all right wing opinion that they do not agree with. I have lost track of the number of times some left wing ideologue has demanded that anyone who expresses any variation from the left wing AGW agenda to be blocked from accessing media (the attacks on Roger Pielke Jr joing 538.com are textbook example).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:47:21 pm by TimG »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10193
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2017, 07:45:43 pm »
There is much greater diversity of thought on the right than on the left and the unwillingness to accept diversity of thought on the left is why there is such an impasse.

That's hard to say.  On the left you have your typical left-of-centers (Chretien, Obama), your further-left identity politics lefties (ie: college kids), leftist anarchists, communists, social democrats ie: Bernie Sanders/NDP etc

On the right you have classic conservatives (smaller gov, fiscal conservative, individual liberty), social & religious conservatives, cultural conservatives/nationalists, neocons, libertarians, fascists.

But you're right the left often doesn't accept much diversity of thought because the antithesis of their moral positions = evil to them, so evil it must not be allowed to exist.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2017, 07:48:47 pm »
But you're right the left often doesn't accept much diversity of thought because the antithesis of their moral positions = evil to them, so evil it must not be allowed to exist.
Which pretty much summarizes my point on this thread. How someone characterizes their opponents affects how they treat their opponents and the biggest problem in society today is how the left treats people that disagree with them. It is not a few clowns with Nazi flags.