Author Topic: Right/Left Identity Politics  (Read 1711 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #285 on: September 09, 2017, 03:14:12 pm »
I'm quite certain efficient employees are an oddity in your company.

Apparently not since it has become the biggest on the planet at what it does.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #286 on: September 09, 2017, 03:19:15 pm »
And the point is that the shortcuts unfairly limit the opportunities people from different racial and ethnic backgrounds have in a way that a white person with a "Canadian" sounding name doesn't face. It's not about their skills or ability when you're tossing the resumes before even offering an interview. It's not about their skills or abilities when you see an Arab sitting across from you and he makes you uncomfortable because you associate him with terrorists. The point is that these are barriers people face through no fault of their own. This is what we are talking about when we say "white privilege." It's not some mythical thing. It's an observable pattern of barriers faced by people of colour, women, differently-abled people, LGBTQ people, etc. It's not to make you feel guilty that you're "privileged," it's to make you recognize that there's barriers that are far from their control and that people not from those backgrounds, namely straight white men, can be completely unaware of because hey never have to face them. That's the privilege; it's the privilege of living a normal life.

Offline Omni

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #287 on: September 09, 2017, 03:20:15 pm »
It's not fair to single him out when this is often times an unconscious thing that's done nearly everywhere. SirJohn is rationalizing it, but it's still a barrier people face due to their ethnicity or race and that's the important point.

My question is, is it fair to excuse xenophobia simply by labeling it "unconscious"? Somehow I don't believe people engage in it without knowing it and so I think they instead try to somehow rationalize it.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #288 on: September 09, 2017, 03:30:30 pm »
My question is, is it fair to excuse xenophobia simply by labeling it "unconscious"? Somehow I don't believe people engage in it without knowing it and so I think they instead try to somehow rationalize it.
I disagree with you. The problem with systematic racism is that people don't need to think about it. The insidiousness is that the majority group can go completely unaware of the barriers faced by others because the majority themselves don't face them. There's a distinction to be made against bigots and their personal face-to-face discrimination and prejudice and systemic racism that stems from a society built without consideration for others.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #289 on: September 09, 2017, 03:54:18 pm »
And the point is that the shortcuts unfairly limit the opportunities people from different racial and ethnic backgrounds have in a way that a white person with a "Canadian" sounding name doesn't face.

Perhaps so. On the other hand, studies have shown this preference for similar people is not confined to white anglos. Francophones tend to hire Francophones. Blacks hire Blacks. Asians hire Asians. Most people are more comfortable with those who are much like we are.

And the presumption most of those with foreign names are foreigners will fade away in any event since there are now an awful lot of Canadian born people with 'foreign names'. And more every year.

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The point is that these are barriers people face through no fault of their own. This is what we are talking about when we say "white privilege." It's not some mythical thing.

People are human, and at least a lot of the barriers in place, at least in Canada, is due to so many people immigrating here in such a short time with so little grasp of the language or culture, and an encouragement from government to take pride in who and what they are and not cast it aside. Communication skills are a HUGE issue in areas like I worked and foreigners often do not possess them to the extent needed. "Taxi driver English" is simply not acceptable when dealing with complex software and regulatory issues.

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It's not to make you feel guilty that you're "privileged," it's to make you recognize that there's barriers that are far from their control and that people not from those backgrounds, namely straight white men, can be completely unaware of because hey never have to face them. That's the privilege; it's the privilege of living a normal life.

I don't doubt someone new to Canada is going to be at a disadvantage to me. Are you saying they shouldn't be? Are we to deny any advantage, however natural, to those born and raised here?

Anyone who is new to a country is going to face challenges, and should expect to. They won't have the connections and the local knowledge. As you're aware most good jobs are never advertised outside a firm or department. They don't need to be. People who work there almost always know someone. If you're an immigrant you don't have those connections. Hell, if you come here from Vancouver you won't have those connections either.

The government puts a lot of effort into short circuiting the hiring process in order to be fair to all applicants, but the result is a bureaucratic mess which is unfair to the actual government itself. Now the government can afford to have a hideously expensive bureaucracy which slows down hiring to a snails pace, and takes up masses of managers' time, but private industry cannot.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 03:57:22 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #290 on: September 09, 2017, 04:15:16 pm »
I disagree with you. The problem with systematic racism is that people don't need to think about it. The insidiousness is that the majority group can go completely unaware of the barriers faced by others because the majority themselves don't face them. There's a distinction to be made against bigots and their personal face-to-face discrimination and prejudice and systemic racism that stems from a society built without consideration for others.

Well I grew up in about as pasty white a community as you could imagine until in my late teens I moved to the "big smoke" (the Beaches area of TO) and found myself in the company of a lot of people who didn't look like me. I was certainly aware of concept of racism, but I chose not to go down that road. I can't see how I could have chosen otherwise without knowing it. Systemic racism is no less racism than any other type. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #291 on: September 09, 2017, 09:04:21 pm »
. Even if one could establish that race related factors were a factor that does not mean they are the dominate or even a significant factor. Yet that is all we talk about. This is a problem.

I agree.

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It is also worth noting that I already live in the Canada of the near future where the vast majority of businesses in Richmond are owned by non-whites who feel none of the "white guilt" that drives the SJWs and happily restrict hiring to ethnically desirable groups. There are many stores  in shopping malls where you will never see a non-Asian employee. How does whinging about "white privilege" help anyone in Richmond?

I'm sure that's true, it should be investigated & called out as racial discrimination with criminal implications.  Yes there's Asian privilege too, "privilege" is unearned advantage due to some kind of BS.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #292 on: September 09, 2017, 09:06:53 pm »
So wait, let's see if I got this straight.

It's not about race, it's about Canadian-ness... but you have preconceived ideas (aka prejudices) about people from certain countries that they would likely be less Canadian... but in your mind that is NOT racism?

Are you kidding, that's exactly what racism is.

I think for SirJohn it's a lot more about culture than race.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Omni

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #293 on: September 09, 2017, 09:14:52 pm »
I think for SirJohn it's a lot more about culture than race.

I think you've got that completely back asswards. Argus's comments tend to be mostly about race and indicate he thinks that other races are unable to integrate with North American culture which is completely untrue. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 09:24:51 pm by JMT »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #294 on: September 09, 2017, 09:55:54 pm »
I don't doubt someone new to Canada is going to be at a disadvantage to me. Are you saying they shouldn't be? Are we to deny any advantage, however natural, to those born and raised here?

Anyone who is new to a country is going to face challenges, and should expect to. They won't have the connections and the local knowledge. As you're aware most good jobs are never advertised outside a firm or department. They don't need to be. People who work there almost always know someone. If you're an immigrant you don't have those connections. Hell, if you come here from Vancouver you won't have those connections either.

And then you argue they shouldn't even be allowed here, posting surveys about how difficult it is for them to find work when first arriving. Yet you seem to understand their context quite well and ignore how well they're doing 5 and 10 years on.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #295 on: September 10, 2017, 02:17:39 pm »
I think you've got that completely back asswards. Argus's comments tend to be mostly about race and indicate he thinks that other races are unable to integrate with North American culture which is completely untrue.

My comments on immigration are NEVER about race,
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 09:41:22 pm by JMT »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #296 on: September 10, 2017, 02:20:54 pm »
And then you argue they shouldn't even be allowed here, posting surveys about how difficult it is for them to find work when first arriving. Yet you seem to understand their context quite well and ignore how well they're doing 5 and 10 years on.

They're NOT doing well 5 and 10 years on. That's the point. And I don't say no one should come. I say that immigration is, in essence, like recruiting employees. You have people from one college which generally, according to your experience, tend to perform poorly at your business, and others, from another college, which have a much greater tendency to shine. Why does it not stand to reason you should try to recruit as many people as possible from that latter college, and bypass the former? Especially when, once you hire them, you can't ever fire them.

I'm sure there are some bright people at Carleton, but if I had a chance to recruit as many people as I wanted from Oxford, Cambridge and MIT I'd probably prefer to do that.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #297 on: September 10, 2017, 02:30:50 pm »
My comments on immigration are NEVER about race, so you're as full of **** as usual.

OMG, surely you jest. It's either race or it's insults when you get challenged on the comments. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #298 on: September 10, 2017, 02:33:39 pm »
OMG, surely you jest. It's either race or it's insults when you get challenged on the comments.

Prove it.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #299 on: September 10, 2017, 02:50:47 pm »
Prove it.

You make hyperbolic and insulting statements about groups you dislike in topic titles and throughout your posts.  Just because you are referring to a 'group' doesn't make what you are saying any less of an insult.  You don't call "ideas" stupid, you call "people" stupid.  You are one of the most consistently insulting people I've ever seen on a forum.   

You claim you wan't 'rational' discussion, but when you open topics with insults and litter more insults through almost every post you make, you aren't looking for rational discussion.   I am not sure if you are lying to yourself or if you just think you are so much cleverer than everyone else they won't notice.   
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