Author Topic: Right/Left Identity Politics  (Read 1158 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2017, 04:23:41 pm »
https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2014/12/05/Jobs-Report-Black-and-White-Hidden-Bias-Hiring
I looked at the links that do not provide any evidence to support your claim (hint differences in work force participation do not establish evidence of racism). You simply assumed it does because you want to believe that to be true.

Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2017, 04:33:18 pm »
Well, yes.  Some debates are over.  We don't need to debate the merits of the theory of evolution.  We don't need to debate fundamental human rights, including things like gay and trans rights.  We don't need to debate global warming.
Actually we do.   It is left who unilaterally decided they should not be debated. Specifically:

1) Respecting the right of trans people to dress how they want does not automatically mean society should encourage radical surgeries for mentally ill people. I personally find it unethical to normalize such surgeries and consider anyone who suggests that it should be an option for a child to be a child abuser.

2) Global warming may be a fact but the question about what to do about it, if anything, needs to be debated. The economic case for radical CO2 reduction measures is non existent and people insisting on them are doing so because they are religious zealots who are no different from the people insisting that evolution is false.

But you are proving my point: the left is unable to accept a diversity of ideas and framing their opinions is 'non-negotiable truths' is simply the one of things that people on the left do to rationalize their closed minds.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 04:34:57 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2017, 04:43:49 pm »
Actually we do.   It is left who unilaterally decided they should not be debated. Specifically:

1) Respecting the right of trans people to dress how they want does not automatically mean society should encourage radical surgeries for mentally ill people. I personally find it unethical to normalize such surgeries and consider anyone who suggests that it should be an option for a child to be a child abuser.

2) Global warming may be a fact but the question about what to do about it, if anything, needs to be debated. The economic case for radical CO2 reduction measures is non existent and people insisting on them are doing so because they are religious zealots who are no different from the people insisting that evolution is false.

But you are proving my point: the left is unable to accept a diversity of ideas and framing their opinions is 'non-negotiable truths' is simply the one of things that people on the left do to rationalize their closed minds.

1. I assume by your comment you think transgender people are mentally ill? Now there's some alt.right ideology if I ever heard it.


2. Global warming has been debated at length for years. And the people who have arrived at the conclusions that are important are not religious zealots (who might well think of trans people as mentally ill) they are trained scientists.

Your first two comments completely belie your first two I'm afraid.

Offline JMT

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2017, 04:54:15 pm »
I looked at the links that do not provide any evidence to support your claim (hint differences in work force participation do not establish evidence of racism)

There was more than that there - you didn't look at all the links.

Offline JMT

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2017, 04:56:02 pm »
But you are proving my point: the left is unable to accept a diversity of ideas and framing their opinions is 'non-negotiable truths' is simply the one of things that people on the left do to rationalize their closed minds.

Some things are non negotiable truths.  It doesn't matter how 'diverse' the opinions are.  Opinions are irrelevant in the face of actual data.

Offline JMT

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2017, 04:59:26 pm »
For example - science today (both the AMA and APA have this position) recognizes gender dysphoria as a medical condition, and not a mental one.  That's not open for debate.

Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2017, 05:01:00 pm »
Some things are non negotiable truths.  It doesn't matter how 'diverse' the opinions are.  Opinions are irrelevant in the face of actual data.
Except you did not give example of facts - you only provided opinions. This is another fallacy that the left constantly engages in: claim their opinions are facts and then say they "can't debate facts". Learn the difference between a fact and an opinion.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2017, 05:13:38 pm »
"Self absorbed idiots" don't usually work to extend equal rights to people who are different than themselves, such as skin color, sexual orientation, religious beliefs etc. etc. The right should get their heads out of the sand.

The left does this because in their minds they fight for the oppressed against the more powerful oppressors.  But many people on the left have a very self-righteous view of their own morality, where if you somewhat disagree with their fundamental moral stances you are immediately labeled & completely written off as a racist/homophobe/Islamophobe  etc & then publicly shamed for it.  I know this because I leaned more leftwing than I do now for most of my adult-life so I can look back & realize I've done this & still catch myself doing it.

Now, sometimes you might be a racist/homophobe etc, but sometimes you aren't & just disagree on a particular point & then are falsely labelled such in order to shut down discussion of all who disagree.  This causes those who disagree (especially if you're white, straight, CIS, and/or male etc. aka not among the oppressed group) to fear publicly disagreeing so as not be labeled a racist etc., which people regard as a terrible rep to have.  This is an increasing tactic of the left, I don't agree with it but it's extremely effective, & in the war of ideas it's tactically brilliant.

How the left is "self-absorbed" is also that they empathize with the oppressed groups they sympathize with, but they don't bother ever empathizing with the people they disagree with.  The right is guilty of this too. Each side views the world with fundamentally opposed moral perspectives & each fails to understand how their rivals could think the way they do without being evil naive ignorant idiots.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2017, 05:14:29 pm »
For example - science today (both the AMA and APA have this position) recognizes gender dysphoria as a medical condition, and not a mental one.  That's not open for debate.
*roll eyes* as if the distinction has any meaning. If someone is so messed up that they feel they need to mutilate their body then they have a serious illness. That does not imply that everyone claiming to be trans is mentally ill. Just the people seeking surgical mutilation. Trying to argue otherwise is like saying the sky is purple. Politically correct pronouncements by professional bodies looking to avoid conflict with activists do not change anything.

That said: again another example of the closed minded zealotry that underpins many on the left. Someone interested in a rational discussion on the topic would concede my point and talk about the discrimination faced by trans who do not seek surgery. But an unwillingness to engage with people who have a different opinion is why Trump was able to win.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 05:21:24 pm by TimG »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2017, 05:23:10 pm »
*roll eyes* as if the distinction has any meaning. If someone is so messed up that they feel they need to mutilate their body then they have a serious illness. That does not imply that everyone claiming to be trans is mentally ill. Just the people seeking surgical mutilation. Trying to argue otherwise is like saying the sky is purple. Politically correct pronouncements by professional bodies looking to avoid conflict with activists do not change anything.

That said: again another example of the closed minded zealotry that underpins many on the left. Someone interested in a rational discussion on the topic would concede my point and talk about the discrimination faced by trans who do not seek surgery. But an unwillingness to engage with people who have a different opinion is why Trump was able to win.

So one must conclude you assume Jews to be mentally ill as well since they like to cut the foreskins off their male babies.

Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 05:25:59 pm »
So one must conclude you assume Jews to be mentally ill as well since they like to cut the foreskins off their male babies.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/151/Reductio-ad-Absurdum

Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2017, 05:28:38 pm »
This is an increasing tactic of the left, I don't agree with it but it's extremely effective, & in the war of ideas it's tactically brilliant.
It works until people stop caring about the labels which is happening now.
By lumping real racists in with people who have more nuanced non-racist opinions the left is normalizing the real racists.

Offline Omni

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2017, 06:02:02 pm »
And if white men weren't biased in favour white me, that might just be possible.

You think white men are more biased in favour of hiring their own than Black or Brown men or women? Muslims or Jews or Hindus?

If you do, why? If not, why say it?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2017, 06:04:07 pm »
Your post seems to contradict itself.  If Antifa are thugs, and they are confronted with weapons then they will obtain weapons and fight.

None of this says what will stop the 2nd US Civil war.

I didn't say it would. I said it would be short. Antifa will get slaughtered. "Getting" weapons is not the same thing as knowing how to use them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum