Author Topic: Right/Left Identity Politics  (Read 1158 times)

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Offline TimG

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Right/Left Identity Politics
« on: August 30, 2017, 12:03:20 am »
How is considering the left "self absorbed idiots" so conducive to conversation that the onus is on the left.to make that conversation happen?
A rational person can seek a compromise with people they view as idiots. A rational person cannot seek a compromise with people they view as evil. But the bigger barrier is the general attitude of people on the left that require ideological conformity to the point where it is not enough for a libertarian to agree with the left on gay rights or immigration they are still evil if they oppose higher minimum wages or affirmative action. There is much greater diversity of thought on the right than on the left and the unwillingness to accept diversity of thought on the left is why there is such an impasse.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 07:10:50 pm by jmt18325 »

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Offline Omni

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 12:23:20 am »
A rational person can seek a compromise with people they view as idiots. A rational person cannot seek a compromise with people they view as evil. But the bigger barrier is the general attitude of people on the left that require ideological conformity to the point where it is not enough for a libertarian to agree with the left on gay rights or immigration they are still evil if they oppose higher minimum wages or affirmative action. There is much greater diversity of thought on the right than on the left and the unwillingness to accept diversity of thought on the left is why there is such an impasse.

If we left it to the "diversity of thought" from the right I'm afraid we would still be bashing gays and forcing our children to recite the Lord's Prayer every morning before classes started.

Offline MH

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 09:17:40 am »
I think that things have escalated.  Not to the point of violence yet.

In response to Hurricane Harvey, seeing lots of posts hectoring Christians for not opening churches during Harvey, hectoring Oil Companies, Republicans, and Texans for denying climate change and now ostensibly experiencing the effects, as well as the "All Cities Matter" meme which tosses the criticism for Black Lives Matter back at the critics.

Seems disunifying and nasty to me.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2017, 02:25:02 pm »
A rational person can seek a compromise with people they view as idiots. A rational person cannot seek a compromise with people they view as evil.
That logic can only go so far, if you are dealing with attitudes and actions that are in every way wrong.

If I say "the sky is blue" and you say "the sky is red", you don't really have much to compromise about. Similarly, if one individual says "All people should be treated equally", how exactly do you compromise on that point? "You are treated equally but only on weekdays, weekends we can still discriminate against you"? That's the way it is with things like gay marriage (opposed by religious groups).

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But the bigger barrier is the general attitude of people on the left that require ideological conformity to the point where it is not enough for a libertarian to agree with the left on gay rights or immigration they are still evil if they oppose higher minimum wages or affirmative action. There is much greater diversity of thought on the right than on the left...
No, there really isn't.

Yes, there are people on the left who have a set of core values that they think people must follow. But there are also people on the left who have no problem picking and choosing which ideas to adopt. And consider all of the Trump supporters who even attack republicans if they should speak out against some of Trump's actions.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 02:44:34 pm »
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Here's the thing... in the last election, the Democrats did have policies that were palatible to the people outside the big urban centers.
The policies were completely negated by the obsession with unfettered immigration...
Except of course the Democrats weren't proposing 'unfettered immigration'. They did want to reform it (and in some ways make it easier to immigrate) but it would not be a free-for-all.

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...and a clear to desire to screw over working class Americans by refusing to do anything to stop illegal immigration (e.g. supporting sanctuary cities).
But here's the thing... things like 'sanctuary cities' don't often impact rural voters. And even if there was a reason for them to be impacted by sanctuary cities, they were more likely to benefit from them (it actually lowers the crime rate, and saves money that can be better used elsewhere.)

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You can argue that the blow back against these policies is extreme at times but there would be no blow back if the democrats had taken a reasonable approach.
Actually the Democrats did have a reasonable approach in terms of policy... what they failed to do is adequately educate voters about how/why their policies were better than Trump's "Build the wall" and "Mexicans are rapists" rhetoric, which were foolish policies based on fear and ignorance.
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A better explanation is the media did not care about the extreme right. Now it has a Trump that it needs to bash it suddenly starts covering events that used to be ignored.
As I pointed out early, there have been hundreds of murders associated with those on the far right over the past decade (i.e. long before Trump became racist-in-chief.) And the Southern Poverty Law center (a group that tracks various far-right groups) has found that there has been an increase both in the number of right-wing hate groups, and the number of actual cases of violence in the past couple of years.

https://www.thenation.com/article/donald-trumps-rise-has-coincided-with-an-explosion-of-hate-groups/
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There are lots of ways to address injustices without denigrating people who do not see them as injustices. The tactic for the left has been if you think traditional marriage is important then you are a homophobe.
Probably because there is a strong correlation between being for 'traditional marriage' and homophobia.
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If you think police should try to prevent crime you are a racist.
Uhhh.... no. I'm pretty sure that everyone wants the police to prevent crime. (Well, except for maybe the anarchists.) Its how that crime is prevented that is an issue, and tactics that unfairly target one group (such as stop and frisk) are themselves racist.
 
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2017, 03:18:51 pm »
This seems to be at odds with your posts on Antifa.  Also, guns can be bought.

You know as well as I do that the center of Leftist population and power are the major urban centers, most of which prohibit firearms to one degree or another, and are filled with liberals who hate the things. Rural areas, hell, everyone's got guns, and love em to pieces. How many liberals do you think have AR-15s vs conservatives? How many military and ex-military and police and ex-police are conservatives vs liberals? How many liberal survivalist and militia groups are there?

As for Antifa, they're self-righteous thugs. That's not the same thing as people with military training and strong familiarity with weapons.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 03:34:14 pm »
That logic can only go so far, if you are dealing with attitudes and actions that are in every way wrong.

If I say "the sky is blue" and you say "the sky is red", you don't really have much to compromise about. Similarly, if one individual says "All people should be treated equally", how exactly do you compromise on that point? "You are treated equally but only on weekdays, weekends we can still discriminate against you"?

But the left doesn't call for equality. In equality merit would be the deciding factor in all appointments, in who gets into colleges, into who gets hired. That notion would horrify the Left. As far as personal discrimination goes (outside government), I'm ambivalent. As a Capitalist I believe the market takes care of most of this. If you don't want gay customers, well, that's fine. You'll have fewer customers and be less profitable. The profit motive will ensure lots of places like gay customers. Etc. Unless it's something which is necessary and unique - the only hotel in town, say - I'm against government sticking its nose in.

That doesn't mean I favour discrimination. It means I disagree on the importance of certain kinds of discrimination, and the freedom people ought to have to discriminate.

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That's the way it is with things like gay marriage (opposed by religious groups).

Religious groups believe marriage is a holy thing. They don't even accept civil services as legitimate. And according to their holy books men can't marry men. Their real fear of gay marriage was mainly that they would wind up being ordered to perform it in their churches/temples/mosques.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 03:48:25 pm »
But the left doesn't call for equality. In equality merit would be the deciding factor in all appointments, in who gets into colleges, into who gets hired.

And if white men weren't biased in favour white me, that might just be possible.

Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 04:04:48 pm »
Except of course the Democrats weren't proposing 'unfettered immigration'.
Semantics make no difference - they want make immigration easier which means it will repel those that don't believe immigration is good.

But here's the thing... things like 'sanctuary cities' don't often impact rural voters.
Encouraging illegal immigration affects all voters. Your attempt to dismiss valid concerns over to the consequences of condoning illegal behavior is a good example of the tone deaf attitudes of democrats that lead to their loss to Trump.

I'm pretty sure that everyone wants the police to prevent crime. (Well, except for maybe the anarchists.) Its how that crime is prevented that is an issue, and tactics that unfairly target one group (such as stop and frisk) are themselves racist.
If a particular minority group is responsible for a disproportionate share of the crime then many fact based enforcement measures will fall disproportionately on that group. That does not mean the enforcement measure is unreasonable.

In any case, this is not about defending any individual opinion - just to illustrate how the left views anyone who disagrees with them as evil. You are doing an excellent job of proving my point.

Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 04:07:48 pm »
And if white men weren't biased in favour white me, that might just be possible.
Of course you have no evidence for this statement. This is just one of those things you have been told to believe so often that you don't question it.


Offline MH

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 04:10:23 pm »
You know as well as I do that the center of Leftist population and power are the major urban centers, most of which prohibit firearms to one degree or another, and are filled with liberals who hate the things. Rural areas, hell, everyone's got guns, and love em to pieces. How many liberals do you think have AR-15s vs conservatives? How many military and ex-military and police and ex-police are conservatives vs liberals? How many liberal survivalist and militia groups are there?

As for Antifa, they're self-righteous thugs. That's not the same thing as people with military training and strong familiarity with weapons.

Your post seems to contradict itself.  If Antifa are thugs, and they are confronted with weapons then they will obtain weapons and fight.

None of this says what will stop the 2nd US Civil war.

Offline TimG

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2017, 04:15:36 pm »
Yes, there are people on the left who have a set of core values that they think people must follow. But there are also people on the left who have no problem picking and choosing which ideas to adopt. And consider all of the Trump supporters who even attack republicans if they should speak out against some of Trump's actions.
If that was the case then why do libertarians find themselves more frequently allying with social conservatives when they have polar opposition views on things like abortion or gay rights? If the left was more willing to tolerate people with diverse views you would see more libertarians identifying with democrats.

A good example is libertarian blogger I read told of how his efforts to promote gay marriage in Arizona:
http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2014/10/gay-marriage-in-az.html

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I learned a real lesson about politics from my brief involvement in this issue -- which is, don't ever become involved again.  I am still frankly reeling from the refusal of gay rights activists to work with our group because I and others involved did not hold other Left-wing opinions.  Until this time I had a fantasy that libertarians could make common cause with the Left on social issues and the Right on fiscal and commerce issues, but I saw how this was a pipe dream.

Many on the left are fundamentally totalitarian and dislike any debate on what they unilaterally decide are "core values". This makes the left a greater threat to democracy than a gaggle of idiots with Nazi flags.


Offline JMT

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2017, 04:18:34 pm »
Many on the left are fundamentally totalitarian and dislike any debate on what they unilaterally decide are "core values".

Well, yes.  Some debates are over.  We don't need to debate the merits of the theory of evolution.  We don't need to debate fundamental human rights, including things like gay and trans rights.  We don't need to debate global warming. 

Debating those things as if they're debatable is more closed minded than considering them settled.

Offline MH

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Re: Right/Left Identity Politics
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2017, 04:20:18 pm »
Many on the left are fundamentally totalitarian and dislike any debate on what they unilaterally decide are "core values". This makes the left a greater threat to democracy than a gaggle of idiots with Nazi flags.

I'm still not following this logic.  How are Nazis willing to compromise their 'core values' exactly ?  How do you debate that whites are superior, logically, and get anywhere ?

...core values fights are what started both US civil wars....