Author Topic: Reification Culture  (Read 268 times)

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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2023, 12:09:59 pm »
Interesting take.  So you say our numbers map to the real world perfectly because of the human mind's inabilities and yet numbers are an artifact of the human mind.

Does music exist universally or in the human mind ?

Interesting to read someone's take and try to turn it around to my understanding of things.
Numbers are not mathematics. They are symbols we created that help us understand mathematics. Mathematics is the study of the real world.

Music may only exist in our minds, but it's a universal thing. Everyone intuitively gets rhythm, harmony and the circle of fifths. So we didn't really construct it. We were born with it.

"I have worked hard to represent people of all backgrounds and I have always done so in a spirit of tolerance. My reference to the term 'tar baby' was a common reference that refers to issues that stick to one." - Pierre Poilievre

Offline MH

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2023, 12:12:32 pm »
 :-Connection
I was hoping you’d disagree with biological species on my list as I have an interesting (for nerds) thought experiment I learned in evolutionary biology class.  Most people would say we have clear, objective and scientifically valid ideas of what makes a species.

TBH I agreed with it without knowing a lot about the subject.  It made sense though, if you say so.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2023, 12:19:05 pm »
None of the technology used for mass surveillance is real.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline MH

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2023, 12:22:43 pm »
None of the technology used for mass surveillance is real.

How so?
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2023, 12:27:58 pm »
Numbers are not mathematics. They are symbols we created that help us understand mathematics. Mathematics is the study of the real world.

Music may only exist in our minds, but it's a universal thing. Everyone intuitively gets rhythm, harmony and the circle of fifths. So we didn't really construct it. We were born with it.

I think we can agree that the lines are blurry….

If music is innate, and a real thing, could we not say the same about ethics, an, in turn, laws, which are, at their core, a reflection of a society’s ethics?  Most of us are born with an innate sense of right/wrong probably due to our species evolving to be a social species.  Did this innate ethical thinking inevitably lead to laws, like our innate musical ability inevitably led to Led Zeppelin?

I disagree.  I think music, laws and art are every bit a human construct as religion, which may also be innate in humans to a degree.   

Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2023, 01:00:07 pm »
If humans created the laws of music (i.e., harmonics, etc.), they would be able to change them at will like they can their laws. But they can't. At all.
"I have worked hard to represent people of all backgrounds and I have always done so in a spirit of tolerance. My reference to the term 'tar baby' was a common reference that refers to issues that stick to one." - Pierre Poilievre
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2023, 01:15:34 pm »
You're saying what I think of these things.

I argue on the other board who says that because humans wrote that rights are "inaliable" then ... they are.  ie. we are both with them somehow.

I disagree with that too.

Something is real if it exists in reality.  Rights and surveillance technology are human inventions.  They are tools we created.  They can continue to exist or be used or not based on whether we find them useful tools or not.

Our rights can be erased from our laws just like any other law.  We use reason and debate to determine whether a law should exist or not.  I never made the argument that rights or laws are unquestionable.  I put forward an argument why they came to exist as useful tools and why they should continue.

Everyone knowing everything about anyone is very open for abuse, which i don't think you've fully considered.  Maybe you are an agreeable fellow that doesn't like to ruffle feathers much and stays well liked by all and follows the rules.  Some people do ruffle feathers.  Journalists call out governments, corporations, and nasty individuals who do wrongdoing.  Activists do the same.  Do we want them to be able to track and harass these people?  Do we want crazy ex- girlfriends listening to all the phone calls of their ex?  Do we want creepy men to be able to easily stalk your sister, or perverts to stalk our children?  Do we want criminals watching when you and everyone on your street leaves their house and knowing when they're coming back?  If I purchase a dildo to shove inside my bottom it is my right for my family and peers etc not to know about it.

This is a dystopia nightmare out of 1984 that can easily be used to control everyone.

I am educated on the history of political philosophy also.  The English and French political philosophers of the 16th-17th C like Locke, Rousseau, and the Founding Fathers knew well of the abuses that could occur from authorities like governments & religions from powerful ideas and were very careful to make sure their ideas could not be taken to an extreme.

The 19th century German philosophers like Marx and Nietzsche paid no regard to this, and look what happened to their ideas.   So we would be wise to consider the abuses that could occur with your ideas, especially when taken to an extreme by those with power.

If someone is suspected of committing a crime, let's present the evidence to an arbiter of the law (judge) to produce a warrant.  Then the suspect can be tracked with surveillance technology.   This mechanism exists to prevent abuse of people in power from taking these tools to an extreme.  The Founding Fathers created checks and balances as tools for very good reasons.  Not based on theory, but as responses to real things that were occurring to them by governments of the day.

To abandon fundamental tools of our democracy developed  over centuries that many people died trying to acquire in order to successfully solve real problems in society where countries that are still missing them are today still in shambles should be done so with the most extreme caution and investigation.

If you want to keep investigating then you should make a list of the potential pros and cons of abandoning or changing any law and what could happen if they are abused.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2023, 01:30:25 pm »
How so?

I'm using your argument from the OP as tongue in cheek to expose how it's flawed.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline MH

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2023, 01:34:40 pm »

Everyone knowing everything about anyone is very open for abuse, which i don't think you've fully considered. 

Ok but maybe there are some things we can allow knowledge sharing of to solve some problems ?  Not 'everything'.

How about earnings over a certain amount ?  What if we restrict it to people/businesses who get government 'support' ?  Is that such a bad idea ?

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  Maybe you are an agreeable fellow that doesn't like to ruffle feathers much and stays well liked by all and follows the rules.  Some people do ruffle feathers.  Journalists call out governments, corporations, and nasty individuals who do wrongdoing.  Activists do the same.  Do we want them to be able to track and harass these people?  Do we want crazy ex- girlfriends listening to all the phone calls of their ex?  Do we want creepy men to be able to easily stalk your sister, or perverts to stalk our children?  Do we want criminals watching when you and everyone on your street leaves their house and knowing when they're coming back?  If I purchase a dildo to shove inside my bottom it is my right for my family and peers etc not to know about it.

I don't know.  I'm saying that we can stop considering an idea like privacy sacrosanct if it serves a public interest to infringe on it.  Because... we do that today.  Privacy isn't sacrosanct.  The government monitors our communications.  Today.

There are public cameras in the UK and Canada too.    They serve a purpose.

Is it an infringement ?  Yes.  Can it be abused ?  Yes.  Is it ?  Also, yes.

The RCMP infiltrates environmentalist groups by planting agents in their midsts to subvert their organizations.  Is that ok ?

It happens today.

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This is a dystopia nightmare out of 1984 that can easily be used to control everyone.

That's a hysterical response IMO.  Rights are traded off, legislated and changed all the time.  Why can't we discuss it ?

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The 19th century German philosophers like Marx and Nietzsche paid no regard to this, and look what happened to their ideas.   So we would be wise to consider the abuses that could occur with your ideas, especially when taken to an extreme by those with power.

All of these philosophies were applied to the topography of the societies of the day.  Nation states, money, communication, religion, the press, and employment were entirely different.  There is no reason to review our current topography and examine what could be done differently.
 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2023, 02:24:46 pm »
Ok but maybe there are some things we can allow knowledge sharing of to solve some problems ?  Not 'everything'.
Let's explore the idea and give examples using the cost-/benefit analysis framework.

We also have to acknowledge that we live in a liberal democracy.  We are all born free until government restricts our natural freedom using violence (police using fists, clubs and guns to drag lawbreakers away and forced behind bars) to enforce their laws.  This coercion is sometimes necessary, but is not to be taken lightly.  It might be better for "the greater good" if people needing organs or blood can have government force others against their will to give organs and blood to save lives, it doesn't mean they should have that right.

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How about earnings over a certain amount ?  What if we restrict it to people/businesses who get government 'support' ?  Is that such a bad idea ?

Can't they make that law today?  Do you want gov to peer inside everyone's bank accounts to make sure the rich aren't getting money under the table?  They could use cash.  Ban cash because its not trackable?

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I don't know.  I'm saying that we can stop considering an idea like privacy sacrosanct if it serves a public interest to infringe on it.  Because... we do that today.  Privacy isn't sacrosanct.  The government monitors our communications.  Today.

They do it unconstitutionally.  They are corrupt.  Like I said, everyone has the responsibility to follow the law.  How far are you willing to go to make sure everyone does?

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There are public cameras in the UK and Canada too.    They serve a purpose.

They are unconstitutional also, except the Charter guarantees nothing, it isn't worth the paper its written on if a judge can determine anything as a worthy infringement "in a free and democratic society", which is the most vague & subjective nonsense ever written.  But maybe red light cameras are worth the infringement?

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That's a hysterical response IMO.

You think its unreasonable to say that having public cameras on every street corner and satellites above and the gov peering into our emails, texts, tapping our phones, and tracking all of our movements for the sake of "public safety and the rule of law" is akin to a mass surveillance police state like 1984, where thought police exist?  Would you consider the fascist dictatorship of CCP China a dystopia?  They have the most public cameras in the world (google it).



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Rights are traded off, legislated and changed all the time.  Why can't we discuss it ?

We can, we're doing right now. I'm not trying to censor you, i'm debating you.

What if left-wing activists were very protective of these rights, and what if they were so offended by your ideas that they would want them banned from Youtube and twitter, and professors and celebrities and Hardner who mouthed them would be cancelled?  Does this give you a new perspective on the importance of free speech?  The moment the mob turns on you, and they decide your opinions are offensive to the moral mainstream, you're done, and so is any discussion.

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All of these philosophies were applied to the topography of the societies of the day.  Nation states, money, communication, religion, the press, and employment were entirely different.  There is no reason to review our current topography and examine what could be done differently.

Sure let's do it.  Your ideas (in all honesty) offend me greatly but i'm willing to discuss them.  And maybe you're right, or wrong?  There is also no reason to not review our lockdown policies and examine what could be done differently.  Or our views on abortion, immigration, vaccine mandates, trans rights policies, or literally any other idea.  Or we could just shut yours and their ideas down because the status quo is sacrosanct and the mere discussion of dissenting opinions is so offensive it justifies banning these views from social media and college campuses and getting you and them fired as a warning to anyone else who dares speak them.  What is the name of your professional organization so anonymous people on twitter can send in a dozen complains to get you reeducated or fired.  You are a drug-addict dietary nutjob Burning Man-enthusiast who sounds like Kermit the Frog.

Your political views are typically fairly close to what the zeitgeist consensus is (ie: majority of mainstream liberal types think).  Do you now understand what it might be like to have a dissenting opinion challenging that?  How does it feel?  I bet it doesn't feel very good...
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2023, 02:28:41 pm »
Why did this topic get turned into the surveillance topic?

Offline MH

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2023, 02:53:29 pm »
Why did this topic get turned into the surveillance topic?

Seems like a slip up...

Offline MH

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Re: Reification Culture
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2023, 02:54:05 pm »
Moving this to the other topic then...