Author Topic: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?  (Read 165 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« on: March 11, 2018, 01:38:48 pm »
Nuclear fusion has already been performed, of course.  The problem is that it takes more energy to make it happen than the reaction actually produces, putting it in the realm of interesting ideas that are useless as a practical technology.  A new venture, a collaboration between MIT and a private company, could change that.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/09/nuclear-fusion-on-brink-of-being-realised-say-mit-scientists

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Fusion works on the basic concept of forging lighter elements together to form heavier ones. When hydrogen atoms are squeezed hard enough, they fuse together to make helium, liberating vast amounts of energy in the process.

However, this process produces net energy only at extreme temperatures of hundreds of millions of degrees celsius – hotter than the centre of the sun and far too hot for any solid material to withstand.

To get around this, scientists use powerful magnetic fields to hold in place the hot plasma – a gaseous soup of subatomic particles – to stop it from coming into contact with any part of the doughnut-shaped chamber.

A newly available superconducting material – a steel tape coated with a compound called yttrium-barium-copper oxide, or YBCO – has allowed scientists to produce smaller, more powerful magnets. And this potentially reduces the amount of energy that needs to be put in to get the fusion reaction off the ground.

“The higher the magnetic field, the more compactly you can squeeze that fuel,” said Wilson.

This isn't "just around the corner" exactly... an Italian power company investing in the experiment says that if this works they hope they could have this technology on the power grid in 15 years. But the potential here is clearly immense:

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Unlike with fossil fuels, or nuclear fuel like uranium used in fission reactions, there will never be a shortage of hydrogen.

The reaction also does not create greenhouse gases or produce hazardous radioactive waste of the sort made by conventional nuclear fission reactors.

Prof Maria Zuber, MIT’s vice-president for research, said that the development could represent a major advance in tackling climate change. “At the heart of today’s news is a big idea - a credible, viable plan to achieve net positive energy for fusion,” she said.

“If we succeed, the world’s energy systems will be transformed. We’re extremely excited about this.”

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2018, 01:50:29 pm »
Seems to me we have been hearing a lot about this for 30 years almost and... an Italian project too...

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2018, 01:51:55 pm »
Ok, well... now MIT is involved so it seems more real.  15 years is soon enough.

Offline TimG

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 02:03:51 pm »
A newly available superconducting material – a steel tape coated with a compound called yttrium-barium-copper oxide, or YBCO – has allowed scientists to produce smaller, more powerful magnets. And this potentially reduces the amount of energy that needs to be put in to get the fusion reaction off the ground.
I really hope this works but I remember reading (can't find a link right now) that bad things happen if the superconductor fails suddenly and there is a sustainable fusion reaction in progress. bad things like a nuclear bomb going off. This does not need to be a show stopper but it does mean it will take a long time to ensure the right safety systems are in place.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 02:27:31 pm »
Seems to me we have been hearing a lot about this for 30 years almost and...

This isn't that thing crazy people have been forwarding around on Facebook where you send them money and get Nicola Tesla's secret blueprints for the perpetual motion machine, if that's what you're worried about.


an Italian project too...

This isn't that movie involving Mini-Coopers, if that's what you're worried about.

Ok, well... now MIT is involved so it seems more real.  15 years is soon enough.

Once upon a time I remember watching dad doodling up a circuit for something he wanted to build. He got out his pocket calculator, did a few calculations, and said "hmm. I need an inductor the size of a suitcase and a capacitor the size of a phonebooth."  And he crumpled up his drawing and hucked it in the trash, and we went and watched TV.  Ultimately the limitations on the things we can build usually come down to the limitations of the materials we have to work with. Who knows, maybe with better dielectrics and better manufacturing technology, dad's capacitor today might be the size of a car-battery instead of a phone-booth.  Materials improve over time, and ideas that weren't possible 30 years ago might become possible now as we find new materials to work with and new ways of building things out of them.

There have probably been lots of ideas that have been put on hold because "we need a super-conductor/magnet/dielectric/heat-shield/etc that meets such-and-such a requirement and nothing like that even exists." But it might someday...

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 02:57:35 pm »
Why would I be worried ?  My briefcase is handcuffed to my wrist so I can't lose it or anything like that.

Offline TimG

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 03:01:29 pm »
There have probably been lots of ideas that have been put on hold because "we need a super-conductor/magnet/dielectric/heat-shield/etc that meets such-and-such a requirement and nothing like that even exists." But it might someday...
This is nothing new. Da Vinci developed the concept of a helicopter centuries before it was viable. OTOH, this is why it is not possible to predict when a given technology would be viable when barriers like this exist.

Offline wilber

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 05:53:57 pm »


This isn't that movie involving Mini-Coopers, if that's what you're worried about.

Once upon a time I remember watching dad doodling up a circuit for something he wanted to build. He got out his pocket calculator, did a few calculations, and said "hmm. I need an inductor the size of a suitcase and a capacitor the size of a phonebooth."  And he crumpled up his drawing and hucked it in the trash, and we went and watched TV.  Ultimately the limitations on the things we can build usually come down to the limitations of the materials we have to work with. Who knows, maybe with better dielectrics and better manufacturing technology, dad's capacitor today might be the size of a car-battery instead of a phone-booth.  Materials improve over time, and ideas that weren't possible 30 years ago might become possible now as we find new materials to work with and new ways of building things out of them.

 -k

The Micheal Cain one please.

Back in the eighties I wound up sitting beside a British Aerospace engineer on a flight to somewhere. He was part of the Eurofighter project. I asked him about  a Gruman test aircraft that had forward swept wings. He said it wasn’t a new idea and the Germans had experimented with it during WW2, but it was only now that we had the advanced composites that were strong enough to stand the stresses and the computers to make such an unstable design flyable.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 05:59:44 pm »
This is nothing new. Da Vinci developed the concept of a helicopter centuries before it was viable. OTOH, this is why it is not possible to predict when a given technology would be viable when barriers like this exist.

He had the idea of a helicopter but it wouldn’t have been viable even with today’s  technology. It took another genius, Igor Sikorsky to understand the concept of a flying gyroscope and how to make it work.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline TimG

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 06:01:57 pm »
He had the idea of a helicopter but it wouldn’t have been viable even with today’s  technology. It took another genius, Igor Sikorsky to understand the concept of a flying gyroscope and how to make it work.
Are you saying Sikorsky did not get the original concept from Da Vinci's drawings?

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 06:02:03 pm »
I think most of the hoped for advantages of a forward swept wing failed to materialize with the exception of better control when approaching stall speed.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 06:04:21 pm »
Are you saying Sikorsky did not get the original concept from Da Vinci's drawings?

Wasn't Leonardo's drawing a corkscrew and not fan blade?

Offline wilber

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 06:21:30 pm »
Are you saying Sikorsky did not get the original concept from Da Vinci's drawings?

Sikorskyi came up with the main rotor, tail rotor configuration that most helicopters use. You need the tail rotor to counteract the torque from the engine or the rotor will spin in one direction and the fuselage in the other. The alternative is to use two main rotors which  turn in in opposite directions.

He also understood that the main rotor is a gyroscope which will react 90 degrees in advance of a force applied to it and designed a control system that could change the pitch of the blades in order to control the rotor. Up, down, forward, back, right, left. When I took helicopters in aircraft maintenance at BCIT, the first thing that went through  my mind was that this guy was a friggin genious to figure this out. Thy really are fascinating machines.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 06:26:13 pm »
I think most of the hoped for advantages of a forward swept wing failed to materialize with the exception of better control when approaching stall speed.

Could be, it hasn’t seemed to have gone anywhere.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline TimG

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Re: Nuclear fusion soon to be viable?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2018, 10:43:41 pm »
Sikorskyi came up with the main rotor, tail rotor configuration that most helicopters use. You need the tail rotor to counteract the torque from the engine or the rotor will spin in one direction and the fuselage in the other. The alternative is to use two main rotors which  turn in in opposite directions.
I don't question his genius. My point is someone does not suddenly wake up one day and decide try and build something as complex as a helicopter. The inspiration came from somewhere and I am assuming it was Da Vinci's drawings but it could have been something else.