Author Topic: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!  (Read 185 times)

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Offline wilber

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"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline eyeball

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2019, 07:47:46 pm »

Imagine the possibilities-- pollution-free power that could last thousands of years! It's time to say "Yes!" to nuclear power!


 -k
It certainly sound's hopeful. I'll get behind it when I see an institution of accountability that virtually guarantees government officials and corporate operators are unable to corrupt the regulation of the nuclear industry and especially where it comes to handling it's waste.  I'm afraid I can't say yes until that day. There is still way too much slack in our system as evidenced by current affairs.


Offline ?Impact

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2019, 05:20:10 pm »
Wind, solar and EV batteries require massive quantities of rare earths
...
The concrete argument is silly

Ignoring the rapidly changing battery chemistry is silly.
Calling the concrete argument silly is silly. Here are some facts:

 Largest windmill - 395 cubic yards concrete - 2.3 MW
 Hover dam - 4,360,000 cubic yards concrete - 2000 MW
 

« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:56:26 pm by ?Impact »

Offline TimG

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2019, 05:51:58 pm »
Ignoring the rapidly changing battery chemistry is silly. Calling the concrete argument silly is silly.
Sorry, I talk about the technology as it is. Not as it might be. Maybe by 2030 we will have economic fusion power. That does not mean we should talk about today as if it is a reality.

As I said: plenty of concrete needed to install those big wind turbines. When you multiply that out by the huge number of turbines it takes to match the output of a nuclear plant you will find that the differentials in concrete needed are much smaller than you assume. On top of that you have the concrete needed for the natural gas plants needed to provide backup to the wind power which would likely eliminate any differential left.

The fact that you jumped on the concrete argument without taking the time to think about how much concrete is really needed for alternatives is what makes it silly. It makes it seem like you looking for excuses to dismiss nuclear power rather than acknowledging that it is best solution currently available if reducing CO2 emissions is an objective.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2019, 05:58:13 pm »
As I said: plenty of concrete needed to install those big wind turbines.

Yes it is, and I updated the post above with those facts. The point is that plenty, plenty, plenty more is needed for hydro and nuclear. I am trying to get complete numbers for nuclear plants, so far have only found numbers for upgrades.

Offline Omni

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2019, 06:06:31 pm »
Building power lines requires concrete regardless of how the power they carry is produced. So does the building of nuclear plants, as does the production of windmills. During their entire life cycle nuke plants and windmills produce equivelant amounts of CO2. The good news the nuke provides power 24 hours a day, regardless of the wind.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2019, 06:09:52 pm »
During their entire life cycle nuke plants and windmills produce equivelant amounts of CO2.

What facts is that statement based on?

Offline TimG

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2019, 06:11:22 pm »
Yes it is, and I updated the post above with those facts. The point is that plenty, plenty, plenty more is needed for hydro and nuclear. I am trying to get complete numbers for nuclear plants, so far have only found numbers for upgrades.
Well if you can find numbers lets see them.

Note that to match a 1GW nuclear plant you would need 2.5GW of wind to account for the differences in capacity factor (that is erring in favor of wind power).
You would also need at least one 500MW-1GW gas turbine plant to provide backup when the wind drops to near zero.

So the concrete requirements for wind power must include the concrete needed for those backup plants.

If we do the calculations with hydro which has a lower capacity factor we find that:

1000 2.3MW wind 395,000 cu yds + backup power so the comparison looks good for hydro - but you picked a very old design using old techniques.
Data from a new dam like Site C would be more useful.

Note that hydro provides base load without the need for natural gas backup power which makes it superior than wind when it comes to GHGs emissions.


« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:31:57 pm by TimG »

Offline TimG

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2019, 06:14:47 pm »
Building power lines requires concrete regardless of how the power they carry is produced.
Not exactly true. Nuclear can be built close to where the power is consumed. Wind power has to be built where geography co-operates. This means wind power, on average, requires significantly more transmission line capacity than nuclear.

Offline Omni

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2019, 06:18:58 pm »
What facts is that statement based on?

The World Nuclear Association  carried out a review of over twenty studies assessing the greenhouse gas emissions produced by different forms of electricity generation. The results summarised in the chart below show that generating electricity from fossil fuels results in greenhouse gas emissions far higher than when using nuclear or renewable generation.

Greenhouse gas emissions from electricity generation

http://www.world-nuclear.org/nuclear-basics/greenhouse-gas-emissions-avoided.aspx













































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Offline Omni

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2019, 06:26:34 pm »
Not exactly true. Nuclear can be built close to where the power is consumed. Wind power has to be built where geography co-operates. This means wind power, on average, requires significantly more transmission line capacity than nuclear.

Well it is pretty much true because it's not likely we would build a nuclear plant downtown in each community it is meant to serve. There will be central locations and the power will be streamed to the consumers. However we already have a pretty well established grid system so re-attaching the wires to a different type of plant wouldn't be all that big a deal. Of course growing population will require expansion.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2019, 06:29:16 pm »
Wind is built where the wind blows the most consistent
Nuclear is built away from larger population centers, which are usually the biggest consumers
Hydro is built where the water flows
Solar is built where the sun shines
Gas is built away from children's hospitals
Coal is built in Trump's back yard

Offline wilber

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2019, 12:49:32 pm »
Ignoring the rapidly changing battery chemistry is silly.
Calling the concrete argument silly is silly. Here are some facts:

 Largest windmill - 395 cubic yards concrete - 2.3 MW
 Hover dam - 4,360,000 cubic yards concrete - 2000 MW

Depends on the dam. The Hoover dam is an extreme example of a concrete dam. The WAC Bennet dam is an earth filled dam that uses comparatively little concrete and produces 2900 MW. Besides, the comparison here is between wind and nuclear, not hydro.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2019, 02:52:14 pm »
Besides, the comparison here is between wind and nuclear, not hydro.

The comparison should be, as I originally stated, the net environmental impact of all technologies. Again, let me repeat for the umpteenth time, I support examining nuclear technology as it does have some advantages. Why, why, why, does everyone argue that we should accept it blindly?