Author Topic: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!  (Read 192 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« on: March 17, 2019, 12:51:56 pm »
Remember Hans Blix?  He was the international nuclear expert tasked with inspecting Iraq facilities for evidence that weapons of mass distruction were being created, and concluded there weren't any.


Anyway, Hans wrote this editorial last week, calling for nuclear power to be part of our plans for meeting energy needs while addressing CO2 emissions.

http://time.com/5547063/hans-blix-nuclear-energy-environment/

It's pollution-free and CO2-free.  Blix argues that we have much less to fear from the waste of nuclear plants than from the waste of conventional power plants:

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Frankly, it is not the waste from existing or expanded use of nuclear power that threatens our planet. One might even say that the nuclear waste is one of the greatest assets of nuclear power, as it is so small in volume that it can be — and is — safely taken care of in its entirety. On the other hand, the waste of fossil fuels, especially carbon dioxide, is so huge that (despite much experimenting) we do not know how to handle it.

We should not be shutting down nuclear plants to make way for

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Some people claim we can manage the world’s great and increasing hunger for energy by using wind and solar power. The call for “renewable energy sources” excludes fossil fuels, but it also excludes nuclear power, which is based on non-renewable uranium resources. It has been a smart but facile message, and we should be grateful that the world’s two most populous countries — China and India — are fast expanding their use of nuclear power as well as of renewables. Solar and wind power are great in many places and have gone down in cost. However, getting rid of technically sound carbon dioxide-free nuclear power plants, to replace them with carbon dioxide-free wind and solar plants, does not make environmental sense. And to reject nuclear power because uranium is not renewable is silly. With modern technology the global resources of uranium and thorium could fuel thousands of years of expanded use of nuclear power. Is it not enough that they are sustainable?

New technologies could make nuclear even better.  Thorium, for example, could become a viable fuel as technology develops. Thorium is far more plentiful than uranium, and safer to mine and work with, doesn't need to go through an enrichment process, and it can't be turned into weapons. New reactor designs are meltdown-proof and designed to make events like Chernobyl and Fukushima impossible.

I was reading this company's spiel for their emerging technology--
https://www.terrestrialenergy.com/technology/versatile/
using sealed cores with molten salt rather than heavy water as the heat exchange medium. They promise "walk away safe", and the ability to integrate with renewable systems.  Molten salt is one of the energy storage mechanisms being studied as a way of storing excess power generated from wind and solar plants, so being able to integrate with a molten salt heat storage system could unite nuclear alongside wind and solar.

Imagine the possibilities-- pollution-free power that could last thousands of years! It's time to say "Yes!" to nuclear power!


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

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Offline Omni

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2019, 01:16:07 pm »
I would totally agree with that. From what I have read we have come a long way with the technology and have learned lessons such as not putting a reactor on a fault line near an ocean with the standby generators in the basement (Fukushima) And of course there was Chernobyl. Hopefully we can put all that behind us and start getting the carcinogenic coal smoke out of the air.
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2019, 01:30:43 pm »
Remember Hans Blix?  He was the international nuclear expert tasked with inspecting Iraq facilities for evidence that weapons of mass distruction were being created, and concluded there weren't any.

He was the one who was killed, when Kim Jong-Il fed Blix to his Sharks in Team America World Police.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 08:34:33 pm by Vid »
If Omni, Impact, and the_squid ever had a love child, I would be him
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Offline wilber

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2019, 01:36:48 pm »
If we are really serious about drastically reducing CO2 emissions, I don't think nuclear can be ignored.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2019, 01:45:24 pm »
We need safe nuclear power, built underground or whatnot (i'm no nuclear scientist).  I'm sure technology has improved immensely.  The only concern at all I have is from terror attacks.  But certain fail-safes should be thought of by now, right?

If we can be assured to be safe even if ie: a plane crashes into a nuke plant via a terrorist, we should be full steam ahead on nuclear! (pun intended).

We've been in the nuclear age for, what, almost 80 years now?  Let's do this.  At least until some other form of renewable energy is invented or perfected (and made cheaper) in the coming decades.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Omni

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2019, 01:58:29 pm »
we should get to work on that, it takes from 4-5 years to build a plant.

Offline waldo

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2019, 02:09:37 pm »
Rick Perry is on it!

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Offline waldo

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2019, 02:30:47 pm »
Imagine the possibilities-- pollution-free power that could last thousands of years! It's time to say "Yes!" to nuclear power!

I've oft touted the IV generation holy grail pursuits... mentioning a prominent early adopter/advocate, James Hansen. As much as the polarizing figure he is, his name drew attention to the possibilities of "safe(r)" nuclear design - and that sustainable bridge away from fossil-fuel. This article highlights some of his "short-comings" in this regard as well as framing more realistic expectations and the timeline therein:

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Moreover, the assumption that mass production of Generation IV reactors might begin in or around 2030 is unrealistic. A report by a French government authority, the Institute for Radiological Protection and Nuclear Safety, states: “There is still much R&D to be done to develop the Generation IV nuclear reactors, as well as for the fuel cycle and the associated waste management which depends on the system chosen.”

Likewise, a US Government Accountability Office report on the status of small modular reactors (SMRs) and other ‘advanced’ reactor concepts in the US concluded:

“Both light water SMRs and advanced reactors face additional challenges related to the time, cost, and uncertainty associated with developing, certifying or licensing, and deploying new reactor technology, with advanced reactor designs generally facing greater challenges than light water SMR designs. It is a multi-decade process …”

An analysis recently published in the peer-reviewed literature found that the US government has wasted billions of dollars on Generation IV R&D with little to show for it.

originally from MIT Technology Review (but pay-walled there), I found an alternate publication of same: The new, safer nuclear reactors that might help stop climate change

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 02:50:05 pm »
“Pollution free”

Hahahahahaha

Quote
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/05/the-60-year-downfall-of-nuclear-power-in-the-us-has-left-a-huge-mess/560945/

Sprawling across 600 square miles of sagebrush semidesert, Hanford is a $100 billion cleanup burden, full of accidents waiting to happen. It is the biggest headache, but very far from being the only one, emerging in what increasingly look like the final years of America’s nuclear age.

It is 60 years since America’s first commercial nuclear power station was opened by President Dwight D. Eisenhower at Shippingport, near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on May 26, 1958. But the hopes of a nuclear future with power “too cheap to meter” are now all but over. All that is left is the trillion-dollar cleanup.
—————————

Shutdown is only the beginning of the end. Final closure and clearance of the sites can take decades, and the waste crisis created by decommissioning cannot be dodged. Lethal radioactive material is accumulating at dozens of power plants, military facilities, and interim stores across the country.

Some, like the train cars buried at Hanford, is evidently in a precarious situation. Much more needs urgent attention. Cleaning up and safely disposing of the residues of the nuclear adventure—much of it waste with a half-life measured in tens of thousands of years—is turning into a trillion-dollar nightmare for the nation.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2019, 02:52:14 pm »
We need safe nuclear power, built underground or whatnot (i'm no nuclear scientist).  I'm sure technology has improved immensely.  The only concern at all I have is from terror attacks.  But certain fail-safes should be thought of by now, right?

If we can be assured to be safe even if ie: a plane crashes into a nuke plant via a terrorist, we should be full steam ahead on nuclear! (pun intended).

We've been in the nuclear age for, what, almost 80 years now?  Let's do this.  At least until some other form of renewable energy is invented or perfected (and made cheaper) in the coming decades.

Plants are closing.  New plants are not economically viable.  The cleanup of nuclear waste in the USA will cost a trillion dollars.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 02:58:42 pm »
...calling for nuclear power to be part of our plans for meeting energy needs while addressing CO2 emissions.
...
It's pollution-free and CO2-free...

Not even remotely true, in either case. There is plenty of pollution and C02 associated with nuclear power. The fact that the process of nuclear fission doesn't generate any C02 ignores all the issues with the supply chain, plant commissioning and decommissioning, etc.

I believe we need to look closely at nuclear power because there is a lot of potential to be gained, but making blanket statements like being pollution free and GHG free is ignoring the total picture.

Offline TimG

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2019, 03:33:29 pm »
The fact that the process of nuclear fission doesn't generate any C02 ignores all the issues with the supply chain, plant commissioning and decommissioning, etc.
The exact same problem exists with wind, solar, hydro, and EV battery tech. That is one of the reasons why reducing CO2 emissions is futile exercise.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 03:35:10 pm by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2019, 03:42:55 pm »
The exact same problem exists with wind, solar, hydro, and EV battery tech. That is one of the reasons why reducing CO2 emissions is futile exercise.

Yes, they all have their issues. I don't think that reducing C02 (all GHGs) is futile, we just need to look at the big picture. What is the environmental cost of acquiring the raw material, refining them, and disposing of the byproducts. We should also look at required infrastructure, especially concrete because it has many environmental consequences. Nuclear and hydro generally have a large concrete requirement, wind does as well and it should be compared on tones per kWh generated over its lifetime, solar generally has a low concrete footprint. Also technology is quickly changing, so we should not get locked into models from 30 years ago.

Offline TimG

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2019, 04:09:36 pm »
Yes, they all have their issues. I don't think that reducing C02 (all GHGs) is futile, we just need to look at the big picture. What is the environmental cost of acquiring the raw material, refining them, and disposing of the byproducts. We should also look at required infrastructure, especially concrete because it has many environmental consequences. Nuclear and hydro generally have a large concrete requirement, wind does as well and it should be compared on tones per kWh generated over its lifetime, solar generally has a low concrete footprint. Also technology is quickly changing, so we should not get locked into models from 30 years ago.
Wind, solar and EV batteries require massive quantities of rare earths and mining them causes environmental degradation comparable to uranium mining except it needs to be done at a much larger scale (hence the environmental degradation will be much worse for wind, solar and EVs).

The concrete argument is silly. To produce as much power as 1GW nuclear facility you would need 1000+ of the biggest wind turbines which need concrete pads plus you need concrete for all of the extra transmission lines. I really doubt the concrete needed for a nuclear facility is that much larger than the equivalent wind or solar installation.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 04:11:07 pm by TimG »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Make Nuclear Power Great Again!
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2019, 04:09:49 pm »
Yes, they all have their issues. I don't think that reducing C02 (all GHGs) is futile, we just need to look at the big picture. What is the environmental cost of acquiring the raw material, refining them, and disposing of the byproducts. We should also look at required infrastructure, especially concrete because it has many environmental consequences. Nuclear and hydro generally have a large concrete requirement, wind does as well and it should be compared on tones per kWh generated over its lifetime, solar generally has a low concrete footprint. Also technology is quickly changing, so we should not get locked into models from 30 years ago.

Yes they all have their issues but when you look at the life cycle approach of various forms of electrical generation, and then compare emissions per Kwh, nuclear has a much less carbon footprint than fossil fuels.