Author Topic: LGBTQ Culture  (Read 578 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2019, 05:40:48 am »
1. Ignoring bad ideas doesn't make them go away.  If you want evidence of that, you need only look at the rise of the anti-vax movement, or the MAGA movement, or the rise of the alt-right in general, or the return of the Flat Earthers, to name a few.   

2. This notion that sexual orientation is actually a "gender preference" that can be unlearned has become widespread among the gender theory people, and they're apparently too dense to see that they're spouting the same discredited nonsense that conversion therapy advocates claim.

3. And there's the question of how do we decide who we call a "radical".  Is Rachel V McKinnon a radical? She's among those who feel "cisgender" lesbians need to "get over their genital hangups", and she's treated as a legitimate trans advocate by mainstream media outlets like the CBC.   If the supposedly "for lesbians by lesbians" websites that endorsed the "Not in Our Name" letter publish think-pieces by transbians chiding "cisgender" lesbians to reexamine their genital preferences, is it still a radical viewpoint?   Riley J Dennis is a popular transbian Youtube personality who has been pushing this notion for a long time.  Arielle Scarcella is a popular lesbian Youtube personality who has received a ton of abuse for pushing back against the idea that sexual orientation is just a gender preference that can be overcome-- the sheer volume of criticism against her indicates that a lot of people are mad at her for pushing back against it.

4. Unlike ISIS and violent extremists in Islam, this notion does actually have some amount of traction on Main Street.  You're more likely to get hit by lightning or win the lottery than to be hurt by a Muslim extremist. But if you're a lesbian in a lesbian space (or cyber space, or dating app) you're very likely to get approached by sex by a "transbian" who probably feels it's your moral responsibility to "overcome your genital fetish".  I have heard these stories over and over again from gay women who were trans-friendly and trans-supportive until they had these kinds of experiences in the real world.


My post is going to be about advancing your ideas of framing.

1. Flat earth arguably gained traction when people started talking about it as the joke that it is, though.  But I am thinking about knowledge differently now and the 'catchiness' of a meme is something we can't stop I suppose.

2. So there was a bad idea that some people know about.. and now *I* know about it because the people who want to turn that idea down argued about it in channels like this, or it made it to the Sun (for angertainment reasons) for white cis male consumption.  Ok.

3. Good question.  Why don't you try answering it ?  Is it fringe ideas that make radicals, or radicals making fringe ideas ?  Where do these people belong in the topology of public dialogue ?

4. Quantification is still a great go-to for objective knowledge.  The last time we discussed hard numbers on this you produced a study (good) with a bad methodology (bad).  I am truly interested in any data on this topic.

And as much as you are impacted by this personally, I urge you to think about separating your personal feelings when you post about it.  If you care about publicizing it, then objectivity will help you achieve this.  You have convinced me there's something there but it's hard for me to read your posts when they're marbled with vitriol.  Your feelings are valid, but you can actually make a difference to a minor degree if you dampen them in your arguments. 

And yes, it doesn't matter, but what we post here doesn't really matter beyond being a reflection of ourselves.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2019, 01:52:32 pm »
kimmy, I still hold that you’re elevating the views of an extremist minority who are probably being amplified by alt-right propaganda to undermine trans rights more generally. The more I read about Yaniv and “her” idiocy, the more I’m convinced “she” isn’t really trans at all—the latest scenario being “her” demanding to see an OBGYN.

Stop elevating extremists and undermining the valid and legitimate effort of trans people and their fight for human rights and dignity. You’re spending far more time highlighting garbage people with garbage view instead of the real concerns of the trans community more broadly. Consequently, you are part of the problem. You undermine the real fight by focusing on idiots whose sole purpose is to make trans people look bad. Frankly, I’m pretty sure this propaganda is being amplified by the alt-right and Russian troll farms looking to drive wedge in society to make people more distrustful of one another. This division corrupts and disables democratic institutions.

Stop contributing to the problem. Start fighting for the people who actually need to be supported and stop making celebrities out of assholes.

Offline kimmy

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2019, 02:37:58 am »
kimmy, I still hold that you’re elevating the views of an extremist minority who are probably being amplified by alt-right propaganda to undermine trans rights more generally.

This isn't just coming from the Yanivs of the world, or basement dwelling anime-obsessed Cat-girl trans-incels on Reddit.  This is coming from sites like Autostraddle and the other signatories to the "Not in Our Name" letter, which are what passes for mainstream media in the LGBTQ "community". And from allegedly mainstream trans advocates like Rachel V McKinnon, who has a new article in the New York Times again today.  If these are "radical" ideas then why are supposedly mainstream LGBTQ websites and activists promoting them?

The more I read about Yaniv and “her” idiocy, the more I’m convinced “she” isn’t really trans at all—the latest scenario being “her” demanding to see an OBGYN.

Yaniv is trans because "she" says she's trans.  That's the law of the land.  It's also what trans advocates have been demanding-- the right to self-identify without any gatekeeping. "I am because I say I am." 

Yaniv may be mentally ill. Yaniv may be cynically using Canada's new gender ID laws as a means to file bogus human rights complaints for financial gain. Yaniv may be a sexual predator using self-ID to gain access to womens spaces and to gain the trust of adolescent girls (another incident last week involving Yaniv's online sexual contact with an underage girl, the latest of many).  Personally, I think Yaniv is probably all three-- a sex predator, a predatory litigant, and someone with mental health issues.  None of those things actually change the fact that under Canadian law, Yaniv is trans.  The trans community doesn't get to disown Yaniv because "she" is causing them bad press. Yaniv's right to gender expression is guaranteed under law and isn't open for debate. 

You have heard a lot about Yaniv, primarily because she has made a gigantic spectacle of herself, but also because she's the case that changes the argument from "that would never happen" to "well, you have to break a few eggs."  Yaniv is just an example that illustrates the issue. There will be more Yanivs, because this self-ID is tailor made to be exploited by predators and malicious individuals.


And then there's the question of what "really trans" actually means.  It used to be that being "really trans" meant having gender dysphoria.  Now that's considered gatekeeping.  Those who hold to that belief are called "truscum" and vilified within the trans community by other trans people who consider it "invalidating".  Being trans is no longer necessarily a result of a psychological condition of any sort. Some point to "gender euphoria", a state of delight obtained by expressing their gender identity.  (in olden times this might have been described as a "crossdressing fetish"...)   It's entirely possible than Yaniv feels the same "gender euphoria" that other trans people speak of.  So... what right do we have to question whether Yaniv is "really trans"?  The only criterion the law sets out for determining if someone is "really trans" is that they say they are.


Stop elevating extremists and undermining the valid and legitimate effort of trans people and their fight for human rights and dignity. You’re spending far more time highlighting garbage people with garbage view instead of the real concerns of the trans community more broadly. Consequently, you are part of the problem. You undermine the real fight by focusing on idiots whose sole purpose is to make trans people look bad. Frankly, I’m pretty sure this propaganda is being amplified by the alt-right and Russian troll farms looking to drive wedge in society to make people more distrustful of one another. This division corrupts and disables democratic institutions.

Stop contributing to the problem. Start fighting for the people who actually need to be supported and stop making celebrities out of assholes.

I am fighting for the people who actually need support. The woke left is so focused on supporting trans people that they've forgotten that the lesbians on the receiving end of all of this conditioning and grooming and bullying are people with their own needs and their own struggle.  They need support too, especially young ones who are struggling with their sexual identity.

This is one of those Arielle Scarcella videos that Autostraddle and friends deemed transphobic.  After making light of the push to promote "girldick" and shame lesbians for not wanting it, she gets to her main point which is that this stuff impacts real people, like the teenage girl who wrote this letter:



That girl isn't a prop or an extra in somebody else's journey. She's a person with her own needs who has been harmed. Somebody needs to stand up for her, and it's clearly not going to be Autostraddle or the woke left.  Trans people have Autostraddle and an army of well-funded activists and lobbyists and politicians going to bat for them.  The girl that wrote that letter has nobody standing up for her.  Arielle Scarcella decided to be the person who stands up for her and for girls like her, even though it has gotten her labeled a "TERF" and a transphobe. If it's transphobic to tell the rest of the world that this rhetoric is hurting real people, then I am going to be transphobic too.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2019, 03:11:02 am »
3.  I think the definition of radical changes over time.  At one point women  voting or working outside the home was a radical idea. The idea that the earth is flat is a radical idea to most of us, but it's a foundational idea for flat earthers.  The idea that a celestial being impregnated a virgin who gave birth to a savior who got nailed to a crucifix and rose from the dead 3 days later is a radical idea, but it's a foundational idea for Christians.  Where does the idea that lesbians need to be accepting of "girldick" stand at present?  Tough to say, but seems to have a lot of traction right now.


Why do you think it has a lot of traction ? 

You are not engaging on that topic because it's worth considering, or it's being debated in the general population IMO but because it enrages you. 

That's fine too but look objectively at how that idea has travelled through the mechanics and flow of the "marketplace of ideas".  It's a new thing, or at least a re-discovering of an old and forgotten way that the system works:

1. Outrageous idea is developed by fringe dwellers
2. Intelligent people become away of said idea and are outraged
3. Intelligent people bring the idea into general discussion
4. Now the general population is aware of it

This all seems like a new flow that happens because of angertainment.

Quote
4.  My point in giving you that survey to read was less to give you quantification, and more to illustrate the kind of experiences lesbians are having with trans women.  It's flawed because it's an opt-in voluntary survey, but the same criticism can be made of the surveys that allegedly show an "epidemic of violence" against trans people.  Those are also voluntary opt-in surveys, but woke people take them as gospel truth.  I don't dismiss those surveys entirely, though, because they do illustrate that trans people do face a lot of abusive and frightening situations.  I think you should view the lesbians survey in the same light.


Experience is valid, but doesn't scale to the level of 'general problem'.  I believe the surveys I have read had good methodology but I will look again.

You don't have to quote a survey to get me to care about your personal and specific experience.  That is important and has a role to play.

Quote

5.  Some of this stuff makes me furious, and it's hard for me to present it even-keel sometimes


I hear you and I care.

The way I think of such things is that you have to balance between:

"You can't legislate everything"
and
"We must ensure actions so that we can try to make sure [XYZ] never happens"
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 07:56:57 am by MH »
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Offline MH

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2019, 06:35:15 am »
In order:

1.  I think that's highly debatable. I think that what has really gained Flat Earth a lot of traction in recent years is the power of social media.  It gives stupid people a way to share stupid ideas with other stupid people without having to go through any sort of gatekeeper.  I think anti-vax and MAGA and the alt-right have done the same.

2. Does it concern you that you only hear about the down-side of this stuff when the Sun publishes an "angertainment" article or when the kimmo goes on a rant?  Last week the Sun published an "angertainment" article about male violent offenders declaring themselves transgender and transferring to womens prisons. While recognizing the Sun's shortcomings as a journalism outlet...  shouldn't some more reputable publication look into that story?

3.  I think the definition of radical changes over time.  At one point women voting or working outside the home was a radical idea. The idea that the earth is flat is a radical idea to most of us, but it's a foundational idea for flat earthers.  The idea that a celestial being impregnated a virgin who gave birth to a savior who got nailed to a crucifix and rose from the dead 3 days later is a radical idea, but it's a foundational idea for Christians.  Where does the idea that lesbians need to be accepting of "girldick" stand at present?  Tough to say, but seems to have a lot of traction right now.

4.  My point in giving you that survey to read was less to give you quantification, and more to illustrate the kind of experiences lesbians are having with trans women.  It's flawed because it's an opt-in voluntary survey, but the same criticism can be made of the surveys that allegedly show an "epidemic of violence" against trans people.  Those are also voluntary opt-in surveys, but woke people take them as gospel truth.  I don't dismiss those surveys entirely, though, because they do illustrate that trans people do face a lot of abusive and frightening situations.  I think you should view the lesbians survey in the same light.

5.  Some of this stuff makes me furious, and it's hard for me to present it even-keel sometimes.

 -k

1. Agreed.  I just posted a podcast that talks about how knowledge is different today: https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/podcast-culture/45/ Very relevant to all this.
2. A few thoughts: your rants are personal accounts and opinions, so I value them more than the Sun's angertainment bits.  The prison issue is much more serious than Yaniv's adventures in the waxing industry.  Yes, serious media should be covering that.  TBH if peoples' sensibilities can't get around the idea that violent people can't be housed with non-violent people then maybe that's how to frame it: violent people are actually currently housed with non-violent people.

3. 4. 5. later

Offline cybercoma

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2019, 07:50:15 am »
"The woke left" is the new calling card of the idiots who used to use "libtard."

Sorry, kimmy, but your posts are now wearing truck nuts. You've been lost to the propaganda machine and can't see the light.
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Offline Granny

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2019, 10:05:16 am »
this stuff impacts real people, like the teenage girl who wrote this letter:



That girl isn't a prop or an extra in somebody else's journey. She's a person with her own needs who has been harmed. Somebody needs to stand up for her, and it's clearly not going to be Autostraddle or the woke left.  Trans people have Autostraddle and an army of well-funded activists and lobbyists and politicians going to bat for them.  The girl that wrote that letter has nobody standing up for her. 

I guess I don't understand your perception of the problem here: The girl has free choice to not have that particular gf if it isn't working out, chalk it up to a learning experience and choose differently in the future. Lousy sex partners who ignore a partner's needs are a dime a dozen, and deserve to be kicked to the curb.

I just don't see any undue element of coercion, any difference from anyone who determines that they've chosen the wrong partner.
"Standing up for her" ... how?
By telling her to break up with her partner?
That's her business.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 10:10:40 am by Granny »

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2019, 06:16:44 pm »
Sorry, kimmy, but your posts are now wearing truck nuts.

This is the best burn off the week.

Quote
You've been lost to the propaganda machine and can't see the light.

Why do you think everyone with non-left or "non-woke" views have been convinced to think so by some kind of rightwing propaganda?  But you yourself are immune to such propaganda?  Most people can think for themselves, and buy into messages based on their ideological biases.  I think it's these core ideological beliefs that are the crux of the matter.

Right and left will never get along, their core philosophical tenets are the exact opposites of each other, which is why they don't understand each other, and think the other as evil, stupid, demented or whatnot.  It's why you have such strong resentment for me and/or my opinions, and I of yours.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 06:39:09 pm by Poonlight Graham »
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline cybercoma

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2019, 09:48:01 pm »
It’s not about non left views...it’s about parroting propaganda and alt right buzz words.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2019, 11:11:58 pm »
It’s not about non left views...it’s about parroting propaganda and alt right buzz words.

How do we define or determine what's propoganda?  Here's what you said earlier:

Quote
kimmy, I still hold that you’re elevating the views of an extremist minority who are probably being amplified by alt-right propaganda to undermine trans rights more generally. The more I read about Yaniv and “her” idiocy, the more I’m convinced “she” isn’t really trans at all—the latest scenario being “her” demanding to see an OBGYN.

Stop elevating extremists and undermining the valid and legitimate effort of trans people and their fight for human rights and dignity. You’re spending far more time highlighting garbage people with garbage view instead of the real concerns of the trans community more broadly. Consequently, you are part of the problem. You undermine the real fight by focusing on idiots whose sole purpose is to make trans people look bad.

Sure she's giving attention to the views of an radical minority, though that minority will push the boundaries until society or the law pushes back.  Yaniv isn't purely a troll, I mean her case went to the BC human rights tribunal, she was trying to push legal boundaries and set precedents, and the law pushed back.

Kimmy can still be for most trans rights, but not others that interfere with her rights, and that doesn't mean she's hurting all trans rights.  If some trans rights activists are pushing against "discriminatory genital preferences", which some are, even if a vocal minority, kimmy has the right to push back and say "no".  That doesn't mean all trans rights are illegitimate.

Quote
Frankly, I’m pretty sure this propaganda is being amplified by the alt-right and Russian troll farms looking to drive wedge in society to make people more distrustful of one another. This division corrupts and disables democratic institutions.

Where's the evidence for this? It sounds like a conspiracy theory.  I also don't know what alt-right has to do with trans rights.  Alt-right has to do with white nationalism.  Yes right-wing sites feature stories like Yaniv (though so does the CBC). I think most of these conservatives legit think these people and their ideas are nuts and drawing their lines in the sand too, as kimmy is.  Conservatives just might draw their lines different than kimmy when it comes to trans rights overall.

There's all sorts of social justice efforts that are great, but then people also need to draw a line in the sand, like this nonsense:  https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/apr/30/avengers-endgame-cinema-fat-shaming
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline the_squid

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2019, 11:25:58 pm »
Right and left will never get along, their core philosophical tenets are the exact opposites of each other, which is why they don't understand each other, and think the other as evil, stupid, demented or whatnot.  It's why you have such strong resentment for me and/or my opinions, and I of yours.

Except I’m about as left as they come....   and I hate SJW nonsense and “wokeness”.   It’s not a left v. Right issue.

Offline MH

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2019, 07:36:19 am »

Right and left will never get along, their core philosophical tenets are the exact opposites of each other, which is why they don't understand each other, and think the other as evil, stupid, demented or whatnot.   

Good post, except for one thing missing: team politics are not consistent, so they're the exact opposite of each other sometimes but don't line up with themselves either. The new right attitude opposes world trade and immigration because it hurts working people but still opposes unions.

Offline kimmy

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2019, 11:21:44 pm »
I guess I don't understand your perception of the problem here: The girl has free choice to not have that particular gf if it isn't working out, chalk it up to a learning experience and choose differently in the future. Lousy sex partners who ignore a partner's needs are a dime a dozen, and deserve to be kicked to the curb.

I just don't see any undue element of coercion, any difference from anyone who determines that they've chosen the wrong partner. 

I see someone who has been hurt by terrible ideas she has been fed by well-meaning idiots.

This girl is miserable because try as she might, she can't "overcome her genital preferences". She thinks she's broken and awful because she can't feel sexual attraction to her partner. She thinks there's something wrong with *her*.  She thinks she needs conversion therapy.

As trans people and their allies promote this regressive, homophobic notion that your sexual orientation is just a preference or a fetish that you can "work through" or "get over", people like this girl are the collateral damage.

For a very long time, gay people were made to believe that there was something wrong with them. And gay people were told that they could be "fixed" or "healed" if they prayed hard enough, or wished hard enough, or went to "conversion therapy".  The idea that gay people could be "fixed" through prayer or wishing or vitamins or therapy or whatever else has made countless people miserable over the years.  And it doesn't work, and at this point has been discredited.

And finally at long last our society came to accept gay people as they are.

And that Golden Era lasted about ...  2 weeks.

Because at that moment, along came trans activists and their allies who started promoting this new idea that since trans-women are women, lesbians who don't want "girl-dick" in their sex lives are transphobic.

So now we're right back where we started, where gay women (I never see this directed at gay men, or straight men, or straight women) are being guilted and shamed for their sexual orientation-- being told they're "transphobic" if they're not open to sex with women that have male anatomy.

The girl who wrote that letter is miserable because she's swallowed a bunch of propaganda fed to her by people who care about making life better for trans-women but apparently don't give a **** that they're making life worse for the girls they're manipulating. The trans people and their allies really don't care if cis-lesbians are getting hurt as long as transwomen are getting the sex and emotional validation they feel entitled to.

"Standing up for her" ... how?
By telling her to break up with her partner?

By denouncing the incredibly bad, homophobic idea that sexual orientation is just a "preference".   It's a horrible idea that needs to be confronted and denounced wherever it rears its ugly head.

 -k
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Offline Granny

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2019, 07:41:20 am »
I see someone who has been hurt by terrible ideas she has been fed by well-meaning idiots.

This girl is miserable because try as she might, she can't "overcome her genital preferences". She thinks she's broken and awful because she can't feel sexual attraction to her partner. She thinks there's something wrong with *her*.  She thinks she needs conversion therapy.

As trans people and their allies promote this regressive, homophobic notion that your sexual orientation is just a preference or a fetish that you can "work through" or "get over", people like this girl are the collateral damage.

For a very long time, gay people were made to believe that there was something wrong with them. And gay people were told that they could be "fixed" or "healed" if they prayed hard enough, or wished hard enough, or went to "conversion therapy".  The idea that gay people could be "fixed" through prayer or wishing or vitamins or therapy or whatever else has made countless people miserable over the years.  And it doesn't work, and at this point has been discredited.

And finally at long last our society came to accept gay people as they are.

And that Golden Era lasted about ...  2 weeks.

Because at that moment, along came trans activists and their allies who started promoting this new idea that since trans-women are women, lesbians who don't want "girl-dick" in their sex lives are transphobic.

So now we're right back where we started, where gay women (I never see this directed at gay men, or straight men, or straight women) are being guilted and shamed for their sexual orientation-- being told they're "transphobic" if they're not open to sex with women that have male anatomy.

The girl who wrote that letter is miserable because she's swallowed a bunch of propaganda fed to her by people who care about making life better for trans-women but apparently don't give a **** that they're making life worse for the girls they're manipulating. The trans people and their allies really don't care if cis-lesbians are getting hurt as long as transwomen are getting the sex and emotional validation they feel entitled to.

By denouncing the incredibly bad, homophobic idea that sexual orientation is just a "preference".   It's a horrible idea that needs to be confronted and denounced wherever it rears its ugly head.

 -k

It would be nice if all people just stopped telling other people who they 'should' want to have sex with, but there will always be assholes and free speech blah blah. Lol The only answer really is  free choice. If you're not with a person you want to be with sexually, you depart.
The propaganda will still go on, but nobody is forced (eg, by law) to conform.
Despite changes in law, there are still sectors of society who believe or preach that gay sex is a sin. They're wrong, but they won't likely change.
Maybe there will also always be Trans folk who think sex with lesbians is their 'right'. They're wrong, but they won't likely change either.

Therapy may help the girl resist the persuasion of others and do what is right for herself, the only solution really.
If there are issues of possible abuse, force or retaliation upon departure, that's a whole other, possibly legal, issue.

Just musing but ... I'm a bit curious why Trans women are focusing their efforts on cis-lesbians, when there are likely many women who like dick and would also appreciate a partner with a feminine perspective.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 08:19:04 am by Granny »

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2019, 09:06:32 pm »
Except I’m about as left as they come....   and I hate SJW nonsense and “wokeness”.   It’s not a left v. Right issue.

Then why aren't there any woke conservatives?
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019