Author Topic: LGBTQ Culture  (Read 406 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2019, 02:33:13 am »
Is it coming from a trans person ?  Who is posting this ?

The response is from a trans woman, not that it matters, because allies and supporters and woke-people in general have been parroting that idea.

It seems like there's a discussion to be had.  So have it.  Someone has made a suggestion for how to look at such things, so give a response.

"Woke people are garbage" means you have given up on a resolution and are just going to fight, not helpful.

What really is there to discuss?

Progressives have decreed that "trans women are women" is not up for discussion. The GBTQ movement has decreed that transbians are lesbians and belong in lesbian spaces, and that that's not up for discussion either.

So what is the discussion to be had?  Whether gay women should be shamed and bullied for not wanting pen1s in their sex lives?  Whether there's something wrong with women who feel an aversion to pen1s?  Whether gay women need therapy to overcome their "genital preferences"?  I don't think any of this is up for discussion either, because it's 2019 and not 1950.  I think that anybody-- be it knuckle-dragging Bible-thumpers or woke idiots-- who'd advocate for those things is pretty clearly my enemy, and you bet I'm ready to fight them.

So what opportunity for discussion are you seeing in all this?  I don't see any ground for compromise.

 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2019, 06:57:27 am »
Well we're discussing it right now.

There are many things that remain to be discussed.  You don't have to be part of the discussion, but then say that.

It's weird to me that you are so defeatist on this topic, but you still do bring it up.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2019, 08:30:30 am »
Well we're discussing it right now.

There are many things that remain to be discussed.  You don't have to be part of the discussion, but then say that.

It's weird to me that you are so defeatist on this topic, but you still do bring it up.
It's weird to me that kimmy brings up extremist viewpoints and tries to paint an entire group of people with them. It's identical to Argus and others using ISIS as the definitional example of Islam, yet wouldn't dream to think of the White Nationalist Evangelical Christians as the definition of Christianity. Really, this just says more about the people committing the fallacy than it says about the people they're vilifying.

Offline wilber

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2019, 10:03:30 am »
This old guy doesn't understand half of this alphabet crap but a few things come to mind.

A: I have two grand daughters who excel at a sport which could quite possibly be dominated by women with dicks. One of them is presently at university with an athletic scholarship. Hopefully her younger sister can follow. That concerns me.
B: Why is it only women are having to bear the consequences of all this nonsense?
C: Where do men get off telling them how they should feel about it?

Thank You.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline kimmy

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2019, 10:19:59 am »
Well we're discussing it right now.

There are many things that remain to be discussed.  You don't have to be part of the discussion, but then say that.

It's weird to me that you are so defeatist on this topic, but you still do bring it up.

I bring this stuff up partly out of a need to vent, and partly in hope that some people might read it and say "wait, I didn't realize this was going on" and think twice about blindly supporting trans activism.  I think there is a lot of stuff going on that regular well-intentioned people simply don't know about, but would find highly questionable if they did know about it. And the few people who do try to bring attention to it are silenced and dismissed.

And regarding "overcome your genital preferences!" I just don't see any common ground that can be achieved. They're two mutually exclusive positions.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2019, 10:40:21 am »
It's weird to me that kimmy brings up extremist viewpoints and tries to paint an entire group of people with them. It's identical to Argus and others using ISIS as the definitional example of Islam, yet wouldn't dream to think of the White Nationalist Evangelical Christians as the definition of Christianity. Really, this just says more about the people committing the fallacy than it says about the people they're vilifying.

One of the things that's exasperating in all of this is that people are so willing to just wave it away as an extremist viewpoint.   This is affecting too many women to be dismissed as extremism now.  I don't know what portion of transwomen believe that lesbians who don't want girldick are transphobes, but they're affecting a *lot* of lesbians.  Lesbians can't go on dating apps or lesbian spaces without being badgered for not wanting girldick in their lives, and I have read dozens of stories of women being stalked, doxxed, harassed at work, and even threatened with harm for saying no. 

This "overcome your genital fetish" idea isn't just something being spread among a few trans incels on Reddit, it's being promoted by mainstream trans activists including Rachel V McKinnon. They always preface it by saying something along the lines of "of course every woman has the right to say no to sex, but..." and then set about explaining why gay women who don't want girldick are actually terrible people or damaged in some way.  Cisnormative conditioning, blah blah blah, transphobia, blah blah, "if you won't date lesbians who don't match your genital preferences, you're just reducing women to their genitals, it's actually very misogynistic", blah blah blah, get therapy, etc.  This isn't something you can just dismiss as a few random kooks on reddit, it has become mainstream trans activism.


 -k

Offline cybercoma

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2019, 11:43:16 am »
You're elevating the views of radicals by addressing them as if they even have merit. You are part of the problem that they're creating.

Online Granny

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2019, 11:56:44 am »
Posting this with no particular personal perspective, just as another discussion on the topic.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/speaking-of-gender-a-national-post-debate-about-gender-identity-and-free-speech

I agree that trans people should not be reduced to their genitals, that are generally no one's business except themselves, their doctors and their sexual partners.
On the issue of sexual partners, I agree with kimmy: one is attracted to who they are attracted too. Trying to bully people into being attracted to you has never been an attractive strategy: Quite the opposite. So on the latter point, I agree with kimmy that one has a right to choose sexual partners they are attracted to.

It's never pleasant when you turn someone down and they whine and complain and badmouth you, but it happens. It makes them even less attractive, not moreso. Sex is not a 'right', it's a mutual choice.
You can walk away and ignore, but unfortunately,  you can't stop them from whining.


Offline MH

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2019, 12:27:40 pm »
 
C: Where do men get off telling them how they should feel about it?

Thank You.

I agree that maybe men shouldn't really be a big part of this discussion, yet here we are.

Offline MH

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2019, 12:30:32 pm »
I bring this stuff up partly out of a need to vent, and partly in hope that some people might read it and say "wait, I didn't realize this was going on" and think twice about blindly supporting trans activism.
 -k

Right, but if you don't want people to accept trans activism in its entirety then show some precision in your criticism.

Offline waldo

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2019, 12:38:03 pm »
It's weird to me that kimmy brings up extremist viewpoints and tries to paint an entire group of people with them.
You're elevating the views of radicals by addressing them as if they even have merit. You are part of the problem that they're creating.

against: (elevating) the extremism; the enabling of, "scaremongering conspiracy theories leveled at the trans community"; peddlers of, "the current narrative that trans people as bullies and aggressors"...

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Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2019, 06:06:43 pm »
I think we as a society are trying to figure out how to fit transgenderism into a word that's forever been dominated by 2 clear genders and nothing in between.

It will be messy as we figure this out.  ie: transgender women who are biologically male will compete against biological cis women, until we figure out that this isn't a very good idea and isn't going to work...so we'll figure something else out.

I'm hoping sanity eventually prevails and reasonable accommodations will be made.  In the meantime, people will **** off kimmy as they try weird stuff and push the envelope.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline MH

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2019, 06:24:29 pm »
1. I think we as a society are trying to figure out how to fit transgenderism into a word that's forever been dominated by 2 clear genders and nothing in between.

2. It will be messy as we figure this out.  ie: transgender women who are biologically male will compete against biological cis women, until we figure out that this isn't a very good idea and isn't going to work...so we'll figure something else out.

3. I'm hoping sanity eventually prevails and reasonable accommodations will be made.  In the meantime, people will **** off kimmy as they try weird stuff and push the envelope.

1. Yes and so tricky conversations have to happen.  Some things that won't help: vilifying the 'other' side, or holding up crazy extremists as the centre, refusing to dialogue.  I'm not talking about anyone in particular here

2. Messy.  But it's possible.  We don't have disabled people compete with abled people and the world continues.  We don't have men compete with women and the world continues.  This will be worked out.

3. As much as kimmy says she is sick of the dialogue, she is engaging in it and has convinced me of a few things through her seethes (ex. telling lesbians to love pen1s is offensive)

Offline kimmy

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2019, 04:20:57 am »
You're elevating the views of radicals by addressing them as if they even have merit. You are part of the problem that they're creating.

Ignoring bad ideas doesn't make them go away.  If you want evidence of that, you need only look at the rise of the anti-vax movement, or the MAGA movement, or the rise of the alt-right in general, or the return of the Flat Earthers, to name a few.   This notion that sexual orientation is actually a "gender preference" that can be unlearned has become widespread among the gender theory people, and they're apparently too dense to see that they're spouting the same discredited nonsense that conversion therapy advocates claim.

And there's the question of how do we decide who we call a "radical".  Is Rachel V McKinnon a radical? She's among those who feel "cisgender" lesbians need to "get over their genital hangups", and she's treated as a legitimate trans advocate by mainstream media outlets like the CBC.   If the supposedly "for lesbians by lesbians" websites that endorsed the "Not in Our Name" letter publish think-pieces by transbians chiding "cisgender" lesbians to reexamine their genital preferences, is it still a radical viewpoint?   Riley J Dennis is a popular transbian Youtube personality who has been pushing this notion for a long time.  Arielle Scarcella is a popular lesbian Youtube personality who has received a ton of abuse for pushing back against the idea that sexual orientation is just a gender preference that can be overcome-- the sheer volume of criticism against her indicates that a lot of people are mad at her for pushing back against it.

Unlike ISIS and violent extremists in Islam, this notion does actually have some amount of traction on Main Street.  You're more likely to get hit by lightning or win the lottery than to be hurt by a Muslim extremist. But if you're a lesbian in a lesbian space (or cyber space, or dating app) you're very likely to get approached by sex by a "transbian" who probably feels it's your moral responsibility to "overcome your genital fetish".  I have heard these stories over and over again from gay women who were trans-friendly and trans-supportive until they had these kinds of experiences in the real world.


 -k

Offline kimmy

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Re: LGBTQ Culture
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2019, 05:19:52 am »
against: (elevating) the extremism; the enabling of, "scaremongering conspiracy theories leveled at the trans community"; peddlers of, "the current narrative that trans people as bullies and aggressors"...



I remember when that came out.   

One of the most striking things about it is how it brushes aside the voices of anybody who isn't onboard with their agenda. It's somewhat Baghdad Bob-esque in proclaiming solidarity in spite of plenty of evidence to the contrary.  "There are no dissenting lesbians in our community! In fact a few crossed the border but they were swiftly beaten to death with their own strap-ons!" 

And no mention of the legitimate concerns of anybody who doesn't agree.  The women talking about their experiences must be liars! #BelieveWomen ... unless they're saying something that's inconvenient! Lesbians being pressured to accept girldick? Never happens! Transbians bullying cis-women in lesbians spaces? A myth!  "There are no aggressive transbians in our community! In fact a few crossed the border but they were swiftly beaten to death with their own waifu-pillows!"

It reads like a propaganda piece from a totalitarian regime, and like in a totalitarian regime one expects that dissenters will face Struggle Sessions to reeducate them and put them on the glorious path.


The context of the "Not in Our Name" letter is that it's just another shot in a long-running feud between Autostraddle and AfterEllen. Autostraddle and the others are all trying to sell their readers on the virtues of girldick, while AfterEllen is the only major lesbian website left that hasn't hopped on the baloney pony.  AfterEllen's response to the letter:

Quote
On the surface, the statement appears to be support for the transgender community. But then it goes on to state “we strongly condemn writers and editors”…. and that isn’t a positive statement of support, it’s rather an attempt to demonize anyone who has views they don’t deem acceptable, to call them “hate speech” and in particular our colleague Arielle Scarcella, who has been attacked for her response videos over the last couple of years.

If 10 YouTubers put out a video telling young lesbians that same-sex attraction is a “preference” and “bigoted” and can be “unlearned,” and a lesbian leader, such as Arielle Scarcella, puts out a response, telling young lesbians that innate same-sex attraction is not a “preference” and it can’t be “unlearned,” she’s faced with tremendous backlash and homophobia.

Given those underlying details, the statement is a very clear manipulation to throw women under the bus. This virtue-signaling by some extremists on the left is not something that AfterEllen wants to be a part of. Arielle has done a lot for the community and she has support from thousands of LGBT followers.

(...)

Since AfterEllen is the only mainstream lesbian publication still remaining, that focuses on issues as they specifically pertain to and affect lesbians, we have a moral obligation to give young lesbians (who are feeling scared or depressed and filling our inboxes) a voice. When lesbians are called “**** fetishists” with “genital preferences,” AfterEllen should be allowed to address those issues without backlash. Resorting to name-calling and bizarre accusations as a means of silencing the lesbian community needs to stop.

Being an ally should not require lesbians to deny their own reality. It should not require lesbians to relinquish all autonomy, to believe exactly as others do, or fall silent.

(...)

This goes much deeper than a simple statement. There’s been an ongoing campaign of homophobia directed exclusively at lesbians, and when our writers try to cover these issues, as they specifically pertain to and affect lesbians, we’re shouted down by non-lesbians with slurs and anti-lesbian sentiment. Enough is enough.

Promoting this kind of false narrative only creates more anxiety in the lesbian community, a community that’s already suffering. Lesbians are by far the most statistically unrepresented and underfunded letter within the acronym.

AfterEllen is with everyone, but first and foremost we have a moral obligation to provide a voice to the most silenced group within the acronym, and right now that is Lesbians.

https://www.afterellen.com/general-news/568835-afterellens-response-to-nbc-out

 -k