Author Topic: JW's in the news again  (Read 525 times)

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guest4

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2018, 10:21:53 pm »
Every religious organization did that. None, so far as I'm aware, did it more often than the general public (ie, doctors, lawyers, teachers, coaches),  the evidence from Muslims is scant since they're very unlikely to ever report such things.
::)
Muslim religious leaders seem just as likely as any other religious leader to think they can abuse women and girls and their victims do report them.   

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When it was over, the victim said she returned to her family and told her sister what had happened, which led to an altercation between Bahr and the family in the parking lot of the mosque
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http://www.tricitynews.com/news/port-coquitlam-imam-found-guilty-of-2013-sexual-assault-1.2269564

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All four complainants were very brave indeed in overcoming not only personal but cultural barriers which they faced in making formal complaints and giving evidence against you," the judge said.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cardiff-imam-jailed-13-years-abusing-girls-mosque-koran-lessons-mohammed-haji-saddique-a7829226.html


Offline the_squid

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2018, 10:22:03 pm »
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Should we also bar the police from operating in Canada? School boards? Hospitals? The court system? Every other religion?

If it was a systematic coverup by the organization in question, then yes.  When the CEO on down covers up and hides child molestors from being prosecuted, I have no isssues with disbanding that organization. 
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guest4

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2018, 10:37:22 pm »
 
2. The Church hid pedophiles.
Yes, as do the JWs and the polygqmous Mormon sect, as do the Mennonites and many other religious organizations.  No doubt there are many good people amongst all those religions, but when their top leadership aids sexual predators by encouraging a policy of silencing victims, moving the predators around and refusing to let secular authorities know, that organization should lose their special rights.   At least until they can prove that they have mended their ways.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/avykzz/child-abuse-and-the-church-666

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Earlier this year, the Methodist Church of Britain released an "unreserved apology" for failing to protect children and adults, following a report that uncovered 1,885 alleged incidents of abuse in the Church dating back to the 1950s.

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Furthermore, on the Protestant side of things, the Church of England revealed last year that they were investigating the personnel files of thousands of clergymen and women as part of a probe into allegations of abuse,

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Between 2008 and 2011, Britain's madrassas—Islamic religious schools—also faced more than 400 allegations of physical abuse, according to a BBC investigation,

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Child sex abuse also appears present in the Orthodox Jewish community, the Channel 4 Dispatches program uncovering 19 alleged cases in the UK in 2013, none of which had been reported to the police.

Religious organizations need fewer protections, not more.
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guest4

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2018, 10:48:10 pm »
If it was a systematic coverup by the organization in question, then yes.  When the CEO on down covers up and hides child molestors from being prosecuted, I have no isssues with disbanding that organization.

At least the local presence in some cases, such as police; not sure eliminating an entire legal system is practical.

While I would be ok with disbanding religious orgs, I don't think it's practical - too many believers.    I think reducing their ability to shield themselves through religious privilege or continuing to receive tax breaks when they've been protecting abusers is reasonable. 
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Offline kimmy

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2018, 03:42:47 am »
The Catholic church isn't the only one to have issues with sexual abuse.  One thing that does make the Catholic church different is that its hierarchical structure gave it the power to shield its abusers by shuffling them off to other parishes.  And there are Bishops and Archbishops who are aware of scandals going on at lower levels of the church and may have been involved in trying to "manage" them.


Its influence and financial resources also may have given them more power to suppress investigation.  In Pennsylvania right now there is a grand jury report on Catholic sex abuse that is currently held up in court as the church fights to keep its findings from being made public, or ask for the Church to be allowed to revise the report before it is released.

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/07/release_of_grand_jury_report_o.html

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2018, 03:51:23 am »
I was thinking of this thread yesterday when I read this article about a Tennessee Scientology "rehabilitation" facility that has been closed after one of the "patients" was able to contact police for help:

http://www.cannoncourier.com/cannon-scientology-facilities-closed-cms-16478

Dude had been held for 9 months in what amounts to a prison, and treated with unknown "medicines" in a Scientology "cleansing".  The police freed him, and found a second person imprisoned at the facility as well.

 -k

Offline MH

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2018, 06:08:25 am »
Totally incorrect.  Religious institutions do not have rights, individuals do.

Ok, but... what is your proposal to separate them ?  The institutions are collections of the individuals, so...

Offline MH

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2018, 06:10:25 am »
If it was a systematic coverup by the organization in question, then yes.  When the CEO on down covers up and hides child molestors from being prosecuted, I have no isssues with disbanding that organization.

Disbanding would do more harm than good.  Organizations have been 're-organized' in response to major breaches of trust in the past but I don't have a mental picture of the success of such actions.

Offline Goddess

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2018, 10:49:29 am »
Guess I don't agree that religious organizations are entitled to special status merely because they are *religions* - but even less so if they are helping people carry out crimes.  The governing body of the JW organization aided abusers and tried to defend their actions in court.  That's not the same as an isolated pastor who is revealed as a **** and the Church also condemns him.  It's a corrupt organization from the top down and that should eliminate it from any special status, imo.

There have been 2 governing body members who were re-located for "inappropriate" actions with some of the young men working there.  Ewart Chitty and Leo Greenlees.  This was in the '80's.  The covering up has been going on for a long time. 
"A religion without a Goddess is half-way to atheism."

Offline SirJohn

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2018, 12:46:20 pm »

2. The Church hid pedophiles.  I don't know what the JW did but there are mechanisms for prosecuting people just the same as anyone.  There are probably lots of good people in the church too, but I don't know.

Not every Mexican is a rapist. Some are probably good people, but I don't know."

You sound like Trump here.
The incidence of child abuse within the Catholic Church by clergy was no greater than that in the general population. And as I have already pointed out, at the time when most of this occurred, pretty much nobody and no institution in society took child sex abuse seriously. In the event they realized some priest DID, in fact, do something wrong he was confronted, probably broke into tearful confession, was 'counselled' at one of their retreats, and then having 'seen the error of his ways' and repented, was assigned to another parish. The Church if very big on confession, repentance and forgiveness. And not a hell of a lot was known about child abusers and what was actually needed to prevent repeat abuse. These people often don't think logically, after all.

But their behaviour was not much different from normal society. If Uncle Roy was shown to have actually been fondling the kiddies, no one called the cops, or even shunned him. He was 'counselled' and then other family members tried to ensure he wasn't left alone with the kiddies. Teachers who were caught were, for the most part, moved to another school, or fired, but without anything in writing, and then simply joined another school board.

And in the very unlikely event this ever actually got to court a child molester was most likely given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 12:48:24 pm by SirJohn »
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Offline MH

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2018, 08:15:43 pm »
Not every Mexican is a rapist. Some are probably good people, but I don't know."

I was talking about the JWs, and speaking to former JWs I didn't want to presume I knew more than them.

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The incidence of child abuse within the Catholic Church by clergy was no greater than that in the general population.

I find that hard to believe however I don't have evidence either way.

Offline the_squid

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2018, 10:24:51 pm »

The incidence of child abuse within the Catholic Church by clergy was no greater than that in the general population.

Cite.

 
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But their behaviour was not much different from normal society.

Normal society didn’t molest kids.  Were you an alter boy or something???   Do you have a bout of Stockholm Syndrome??

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If Uncle Roy was shown to have actually been fondling the kiddies, no one called the cops, or even shunned him. He was 'counselled' and then other family members tried to ensure he wasn't left alone with the kiddies. Teachers who were caught were, for the most part, moved to another school, or fired, but without anything in writing, and then simply joined another school board.


Total nonsense. 

Offline the_squid

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2018, 06:37:11 pm »
Here is the corruption that occurs (USA example) when churches are given tax exempt status. 

https://youtu.be/7y1xJAVZxXg

Offline SirJohn

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2018, 07:08:13 pm »
Cite.

No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."


https://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

Sexual abuse of minors is not the province of the Catholic Church alone. About 4 percent of priests committed an act of sexual abuse on a minor between 1950 and 2002, according to a study being conducted by John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. That is roughly consistent with data on many similar professions.
An extensive 2007 investigation by the Associated Press showed that sexual abuse of children in U.S. schools was "widespread," and most of it was never reported or punished. And in Portland, Ore., last week, a jury reached a $1.4 million verdict against the Boy Scouts of America in a trial that showed that since the 1920s, Scouts officials kept "perversion files" on suspected abusers but kept them secret.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html?noredirect=on

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Normal society didn’t molest kids.  Were you an alter boy or something???   Do you have a bout of Stockholm Syndrome??

No, I have a thing for truth, and not blowing things out of proportion due to melodrama or emotions.

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Total nonsense.

There are numerous stories of it.
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Offline MH

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Re: JW's in the news again
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2018, 09:16:02 pm »
Sorry, Argus, but I thought this was "within the Catholic church" not "among Catholics". 

But....

https://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

This produces a similar conclusion to your other article.