Author Topic: Is veganism more ethical?  (Read 265 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Is veganism more ethical?
« on: May 23, 2018, 10:10:06 pm »
I've been thinking about veganism and vegetarianism.  These folks see meat eating as unethical.  But is it more ethical to eat vegetation, where in farming there's absolutely massive portions of once-natural grasslands and prairie ecosystems across the continent and worldwide that have almost become extinct and in order to be farmed must be completely destroyed with machines and then replaced by a single plant species as far as the eye can see?  Imagine how many animals had to be killed to produce these farmlands?

A quick look on Google maps satellite view and you can see huge portions of North American wilderness destroyed and transformed into this quilt-work of mono-crop farmland.

Is this more ethical than eating animals? (which isn't arguably very ethical most of the time either)
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Offline Omni

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2018, 10:13:59 pm »
I've been thinking about veganism and vegetarianism.  These folks see meat eating as unethical.  But is it more ethical to eat vegetation, where in farming there's absolutely massive portions of once-natural grasslands and prairie ecosystems across the continent and worldwide that have almost become extinct and in order to be farmed must be completely destroyed with machines and then replaced by a single plant species as far as the eye can see?  Imagine how many animals had to be killed to produce these farmlands?

A quick look on Google maps satellite view and you can see huge portions of North American wilderness destroyed and transformed into this quilt-work of mono-crop farmland.

Is this more ethical than eating animals? (which isn't arguably very ethical most of the time either)

So what's your plan going forward, stop eating?
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2018, 06:26:36 am »
Also, those are sins of the past.  And they happened in an era where the buffalo was hunted to near-extinction so it's somewhat akin to applying the morals of one generation to the past.

They want to admonish the framers of western democracy for owning slaves.  Fair enough, but their greatness is still remarkable. 

Why is it to me that a lot of these qualitative discussions seem so similar, and similarly impossible to discuss in our broken public sphere ?  I feel like if we were able to come to a resolution on one of them, then we could do so on others too.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2018, 08:02:26 am »
I've been thinking about veganism and vegetarianism.  These folks see meat eating as unethical.  But is it more ethical to eat vegetation, where in farming there's absolutely massive portions of once-natural grasslands and prairie ecosystems across the continent and worldwide that have almost become extinct and in order to be farmed must be completely destroyed with machines and then replaced by a single plant species as far as the eye can see?  Imagine how many animals had to be killed to produce these farmlands?

A quick look on Google maps satellite view and you can see huge portions of North American wilderness destroyed and transformed into this quilt-work of mono-crop farmland.

Is this more ethical than eating animals? (which isn't arguably very ethical most of the time either)
Monocropping is a modern invention to allow machinery to increase production efficiency. I suppose ethicist variety of vegans and vegetarians would probably argue that more traditional methods of mixed crops would be preferred. It would also employ far more people, provisioning for their needs as well. Consequently, there's an argument to be made that it's economically more ethical as well.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2018, 08:15:05 am »
Also, those are sins of the past. 
I'm not sure I follow. Monocropping is still the dominant mode of agriculture today. With it comes a whole slew of issues, only briefly touched on by the OP. Consider the economic impact of literally designing crops so that they're more easily farmed by machinery. The goal was to eliminate manpower to make the accumulation of crops more profitable. The key issue being accumulation and the market economy. Before the nineteenth century accumulation was done in order to redistribute and provide provisions communally under poor crop seasons. Consider as well that monocropping makes it far more likely to experience crop failures, due to a lack of variety in the yields. If a monocrop fails, the entire crop fails. If a species of insects attacks and prefers a  particular plant, it has an entire field of it to feast upon. This leads to the creation of chemicals to combat problems because what might have once destroyed a portion of the yields (since a variety of specimens were planted) now destroys everything. Just like antibiotics, these combat techniques create superbugs by killing off the weak ones, while the resistant ones survive to breed. Modern agriculture i constantly chasing demons. So now we have genetic engineering, in order to alter the crops to make them even more resistant to problems because the chemicals of the past started failing.

These aren't sins of the past. They're current issues. They're also intricately tied with the economic organization of society. There's a free-market mentality around farming, despite agriculture being the fundamental social organ of subsistence. That we allow a so-called "self-regulating" free market to dictate our survival is an abomination to humanity. Crops should never have been treated as a commodity. Subsistence should be publicly-owned and controlled. Mass agriculture should have never been allowed to be private property, save for householding. The Great Enclosure and the parcelling off of property into private hands that preceded the Industrial Revolution was the biggest disaster humanity has ever faced.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2018, 09:27:30 am »
I'm not sure I follow.

The mass impact on animals that came from clearing the land happened long ago.

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Modern agriculture i constantly chasing demons. So now we have genetic engineering, in order to alter the crops to make them even more resistant to problems because the chemicals of the past started failing.

Yes, experimentation and failure is the core of improvement.

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These aren't sins of the past. They're current issues. They're also intricately tied with the economic organization of society. There's a free-market mentality around farming, despite agriculture being the fundamental social organ of subsistence. That we allow a so-called "self-regulating" free market to dictate our survival is an abomination to humanity.

I missed the 'abomination' part.  What is an abomination ?  Lower food costs due to less labour ?  The model of a regulated (not entirely free) market has been followed since forever.  Fundamentally, it is almost impossible to change it.

But go ahead and suggestion something if you have it.  I do happen to suspect that something "new" is on the horizon for all of humanity but I don't know what it is.


Quote
Crops should never have been treated as a commodity. Subsistence should be publicly-owned and controlled. Mass agriculture should have never been allowed to be private property, save for householding. The Great Enclosure and the parcelling off of property into private hands that preceded the Industrial Revolution was the biggest disaster humanity has ever faced.

The Soviet Union had nationalized farming and still depended on independent owner/operators as I recall... let's see if I can find that.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2018, 09:47:37 am »
Omni's comment is pithy, but on-point. 

Raising livestock takes lots of land.  Growing grains and fruits and vegetables takes lots of land. Producing food takes lots of land.  Some kinds of agriculture are more wasteful than others (diverting vast amounts of water to grow luxury products like almonds and pistachios in arid parts of California, for example...) but for the time being, producing most of our food takes land and we're going to keep needing more and more food.

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2018, 10:24:23 am »
But go ahead and suggestion something if you have it.  I do happen to suspect that something "new" is on the horizon for all of humanity but I don't know what it is.


The Soviet Union had nationalized farming and still depended on independent owner/operators as I recall... let's see if I can find that.
You need to think more outside the box and go much further back in history for examples of the kind of reciprocity and redistribution that society was based upon. This idea that we naturally barter for goods took hold in the 19th century during the destruction of a very different way of life. We can and must do better.

Offline wilber

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2018, 10:33:08 am »
The reason the earth can support its present population is because of modern farming methods. Earth’s population was less than 2 billion in the 19th century and famines were not unknown in developed countries.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2018, 10:40:17 am »
The reason the earth can support its present population is because of modern farming methods. Earth’s population was less than 2 billion in the 19th century and famines were not unknown in developed countries.
Again, this is a myth. The reason we have the population that we have is because of germ theory. Farming methods could be adapted to produce far greater yields with less soil degradation, but it would involve having a more varied diet. Instead, we eat the same handful of things over and over again. Modern farming is more about consistency and convenience than feeding the world population. In developing nations, they rely on the kind of householding and subsistence farming that we did in the past. Furthermore, the crop failures and famines you're talking about were still a result of modern agriculture in the sense of monocropping. Monocropping is not a recent invention. It was just the primary mode of agricultural production used in the West and exported to the nations subjugated to Western rule.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2018, 11:30:49 am »
This idea that we naturally barter for goods took hold in the 19th century during the destruction of a very different way of life. We can and must do better.

Again, I am looking for suggestions for something better and am interested in discussing.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 11:48:22 am »
What can be suggested? It's a long arduous process to put the genie back in the bottle and there's no social (therefore political) will to do so. It's a moot point.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 12:35:50 pm »
What can be suggested? It's a long arduous process to put the genie back in the bottle and there's no social (therefore political) will to do so. It's a moot point.

Alright then.  We have reached end game it seems.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2018, 05:45:18 pm »
is it more ethical to eat vegetation, where in farming there's absolutely massive portions of once-natural grasslands and prairie ecosystems across the continent and worldwide that have almost become extinct and in order to be farmed must be completely destroyed with machines and then replaced by a single plant species as far as the eye can see

Remember that most of those monocrops you see go to feed the meat you eat. It takes about 6 times the vegetable protein to make 1 unit of animal protein. It doesn't stop there, energy is a huge factor with 54 times the energy used to produce one unit of beef protein out. Water consumption is also huge with about 100,000 to one ratio by weight.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2018, 07:01:49 pm »
Also, those are sins of the past.  And they happened in an era where the buffalo was hunted to near-extinction so it's somewhat akin to applying the morals of one generation to the past.

How are they sins of the past if it's still being done?
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley