Author Topic: Is veganism more ethical?  (Read 266 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2018, 07:02:32 pm »
So what's your plan going forward, stop eating?

I'm not saying I have a plan.  I'm asking which is more ethical, if any of them?
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2018, 08:44:06 pm »
You need to think more outside the box and go much further back in history for examples of the kind of reciprocity and redistribution that society was based upon. This idea that we naturally barter for goods took hold in the 19th century during the destruction of a very different way of life. We can and must do better.

What is the organization of this society?  I think its fine to criticize capitalism, it has its flaws yes, but you have to fully consider and acknowledge its strengths, which socialists/marxists rarely do.

You said you want agriculture to be publicly owned, but you don't realize that throughout history this has caused terrible famines killing millions & sometimes tens of millions of people (ie: USSR, China, North Korea), and the reason is because governments tend to often be significantly less efficient & productive than the invisible hand of a mostly free and competitive market and involves the freedom of millions of voluntary transactions instead of politicians & bureaucrats who think they can make better decisions for people than they can themselves.  Ontario's hydro system is just one evidence of that.  In a mildly regulated free market of competitive companies, Ontario Hydro would have gone bankrupt long ago because consumers would have found a cheaper competitor.  If the food system were mismanaged like the hydro system people would be paying out the nose for their food.

Nobody has figured out a better way to manage an economy than letting people figure it out themselves. If you can figure out a better & more ethical way than a mildly regulated but mostly privatized capitalist economy I'm all ears.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline wilber

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2018, 08:57:33 pm »
Pork chops tonight. Like my veggies to though.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2018, 09:27:06 pm »
If you can figure out a better & more ethical way than a mildly regulated but mostly privatized capitalist economy I'm all ears.

I mostly agree, but there are some things here:

- Some other models work, here and there, and there's no good reason why other than culture.  There are some not-for-profit or government services that just... work. 

- The economic model that works today, or mostly works, will not necessarily work in the future when modes of work and modes of money change.  I think that digital communication may create new opportunities for efficient self-organizing, and work/profit sharing.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2018, 08:49:53 pm »
I mostly agree, but there are some things here:

- Some other models work, here and there, and there's no good reason why other than culture.  There are some not-for-profit or government services that just... work.

How would non-profit models work if they were scaled for the entire economy?  First we have to consider than a lot non-profits survive on donations/fundraising, but not all.  The good thing is that non-profits still have to compete with each other to survive, which puts pressure on them to be efficient.  Governments yes sometimes work, but almost always have a monopoly, which means far less incentive to remain efficient because they'll survive even if they suck.

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The economic model that works today, or mostly works, will not necessarily work in the future when modes of work and modes of money change.

Yes that's true, that's what caused new economic systems in the past.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline TimG

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2018, 02:00:39 pm »
http://nationalpost.com/news/world/in-defence-of-cow-farts-livestock-emissions-arent-about-to-destroy-the-world-researcher-says

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In a meatless world, Katz-Rosene sees “luscious pasture” best suited for grazing cattle instead being tilled for crops, churning up the soil and releasing the carbon captured within it into the atmosphere. He sees a world without heaps of manure, forcing a greater reliance on synthetic fertilizer that requires fossil fuels to produce. And he sees industrial scale production of plant-based proteins to make up for the missing meat.
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In his research, to be presented at the Congress of the Humanities and Social Sciences in Regina, Katz-Rosene lays out all the ways the cow farts have been misunderstood. First, it’s more about cow belches than farts, he said. More importantly, he argues the study blaming livestock for 18 percent of the world’s emission – since downgraded to 14 percent – is flawed. The figure isn’t solely based on the methane emitted through enteric fermentation (the delightful scientific term for passing gas). At least half of the emissions counted in that study come from the industrial production of animal feed, not the animals themselves. Even without a livestock industry, those emissions would still exist, they would just come from producing more plant-based protein for humans instead of feed for animals, Katz-Rosene said.
Fits with the general rule: people claiming to have simple solutions to complex problems are often wrong.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 03:13:10 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2018, 06:34:12 pm »
If people stop eating animals, the "industrial production of animal feed" also falls.

Offline TimG

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2018, 06:42:44 pm »
If people stop eating animals, the "industrial production of animal feed" also falls.
So you are assuming people just stop eating if they did not eat meat. That is not very rational. The industrial production of animal feed will be replaced with the industrial production of high protein plants and fish to feed the humans that used to eat meat.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 06:44:56 pm by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2018, 07:11:09 pm »
So you are assuming people just stop eating if they did not eat meat. That is not very rational. The industrial production of animal feed will be replaced with the industrial production of high protein plants and fish to feed the humans that used to eat meat.

Yes, but as I pointed out earlier it is a six to one ratio so there will be substantially less agriculture overall.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2018, 07:28:37 pm »
Yes, but as I pointed out earlier it is a six to one ratio so there will be substantially less agriculture overall.
You are assuming that number was based on a reasonable estimate of the types of plants that need to be grown to replace protein from animals.
You can't replace meat with rice.
You are also assuming the estimates were not created by people with an anti-meat agenda.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 07:44:52 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2018, 07:53:49 pm »
You are assuming that number was based on a reasonable estimate of the types of plants that need to be grown to replace protein from animals.
You can't replace meat with rice.
You are also assuming the estimates were not created by people with an anti-meat agenda.

No you can't replace meat with rice, but you can easily replace it with protein producing plants. And much more efficiently. Beef is about the most inefficient way to feed ourselves. For every gram of protein old Betsy produces, you have to invest ~ 7 grams of protein that could be used elsewhere. That's the reason you don't see a lot of cows being raised in poorer countries. Goats are more efficient.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2018, 08:16:18 pm »
For every gram of protein old Betsy produces, you have to invest ~ 7 grams of protein that could be used elsewhere.
It really depends where the protein comes from. Cows eat stuff that humans don't so you can't assume that the protein feed to cows could be feed to humans. In the real world, you would need increase production of plant proteins that humans like to eat and these plants will cost more than animal feed and their production will likely have a greater impact. How much depends on the plant. Bottom line: you cannot assume that getting rid of meat production will produce anything close to those hypothetical efficiencies. Especially if you include pork and chicken which are much more efficient to produce than beef.

Offline Omni

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2018, 08:31:25 pm »
It really depends where the protein comes from. Cows eat stuff that humans don't so you can't assume that the protein feed to cows could be feed to humans. In the real world, you would need increase production of plant proteins that humans like to eat and these plants will cost more than animal feed and their production will likely have a greater impact. How much depends on the plant. Bottom line: you cannot assume that getting rid of meat production will produce anything close to those hypothetical efficiencies. Especially if you include pork and chicken which are much more efficient to produce than beef.

Producing plant protein certainly doesn't cost more than producing meat, again especially beef.  I still like meat now and then, but I have reduced my consumption and switched almost entirely away from beef, especially since it is so costly in the overall scheme of things.   

Offline TimG

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2018, 01:10:44 am »
Producing plant protein certainly doesn't cost more than producing meat, again especially beef.
You can't know that unless you know exactly which plant proteins rich humans switch to instead of beef. It is simply wrong to assume that the footprint of premium plant proteins for human consumption will have the same footprint as proteins used for animal feed. What humans use it will have a greater impact and the open question is how much greater and whether it will negate any "savings" that the switch was supposed to bring.

Offline Omni

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Re: Is veganism more ethical?
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2018, 02:23:59 am »
You can't know that unless you know exactly which plant proteins rich humans switch to instead of beef. It is simply wrong to assume that the footprint of premium plant proteins for human consumption will have the same footprint as proteins used for animal feed. What humans use it will have a greater impact and the open question is how much greater and whether it will negate any "savings" that the switch was supposed to bring.

Not only is plant protein a much more efficient way to feed ourselves, it leaves a lot less green house gases in its wake. FYI cows and pigs fart a lot in case you've never been near a farm.