Author Topic: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?  (Read 5726 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2017, 12:29:50 pm »
1. It's legal for a University to ban speakers based on their speech, but pretty stupid, on a sliding scale. 
2. While I would advocate allowing anything, banning David Duke would not be as big a disservice to one's students as banning Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
1. So for you is this: something to complain about ?  or something to do something about ?  neither ?  If it's the former then I suggest you're ok with status quo.  I guess I am too, but people seem upset by this stuff.

2. Agreed.  But I don't think she has been banned, and the question of what constitutes criticism vs. 'phobia' is central to the discussion... ie. the one that is already happening, and that you don't want to take part in, even on here

Online bcsapper

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2017, 01:00:51 pm »
1. So for you is this: something to complain about ?  or something to do something about ?  neither ?  If it's the former then I suggest you're ok with status quo.  I guess I am too, but people seem upset by this stuff.

2. Agreed.  But I don't think she has been banned, and the question of what constitutes criticism vs. 'phobia' is central to the discussion... ie. the one that is already happening, and that you don't want to take part in, even on here

1)  It's something to argue about.  I have no power in the decision making process, but I can see how dumb it is and argue with people who don't.  That's why we're here, after all.

2) I thought she was.  Banned, invitation revoked, something like that.  Maybe I'm wrong.  You get the sliding scale point though?  I think the question of what constitutes criticism vs. 'phobia' is irrelevant to the issue of freedom of speech, but I'll take part.  Fill me in.
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Offline MH

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2017, 01:21:40 pm »
1)  It's something to argue about.  I have no power in the decision making process, but I can see how dumb it is and argue with people who don't.  That's why we're here, after all.

2) I thought she was.  Banned, invitation revoked, something like that.  Maybe I'm wrong.  You get the sliding scale point though?  I think the question of what constitutes criticism vs. 'phobia' is irrelevant to the issue of freedom of speech, but I'll take part.  Fill me in.

1) Right.  What are you arguing ?  That it's dumb ?  Ok.

2) No.  I don't think so.  She had an honourary degree revoked:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali#Controversies

'Criticism' vs 'Phobia' is a good question.  Making general comments about the religion in general, or its adherents seems to be an insult.  Criticizing tenets seems like criticism.

Online bcsapper

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2017, 01:33:05 pm »
1) Right.  What are you arguing ?  That it's dumb ?  Ok.

2) No.  I don't think so.  She had an honourary degree revoked:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali#Controversies

'Criticism' vs 'Phobia' is a good question.  Making general comments about the religion in general, or its adherents seems to be an insult.  Criticizing tenets seems like criticism.

Are we all agreed it's dumb?  I had no idea.  So much for that argument.

Maybe I mistook her for Tarek Fatah.  Or Abortion protestors, Jewish groups, etc.

I generally only indulge in criticism, but what's wrong with insults?
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Online bcsapper

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2017, 02:54:20 pm »
Like this.  This is dumb.  It's not illegal, but it sure is stupid.  Oxford too.  Bloody hell.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/now-theyre-banning-christians-at-oxford/20429#.WeukDWf4BeU

At least saner voices were heard and future events might be less bigoted.

Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2017, 08:12:21 pm »
There's an ideology created now, coming out of campuses, where one of the purposes is to shut people up who disagree with their views.  The legitimacy of your views is based on your perceived victimhood identity, with indigenous/LGBT/visible minorities given more legitimacy and white men the least.  Not based on your argument, but based on your perceived identity.   If you're white they'll tell you to check your privilege or that you're "whitesplaining", or if you're a man it's "mansplaining".  Safe spaces, trigger warnings, microaggressions.  The PC police are everywhere.  Disagree with the mainstream paradigm and you're labelled a racist islamophobe homophobe etc. (though some legitimately are) This isn't just a few bad seeds who try to use a heckler's veto to shut people up.

You've been watching Jonathan Haidt, haven't you...  :-*
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2017, 08:16:28 pm »
"How would we know, exactly, if this is news or just more attention to something that has been happening forever ?"

It's not new.  The point of free speech is what exactly?

It is new, at least this violent hostility towards different viewpoints. And we know it's new because respected academics with decades of experience on campus have said that it is.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2017, 08:19:43 pm »
1. So for you is this: something to complain about ?  or something to do something about ?  neither ?  If it's the former then I suggest you're ok with status quo.  I guess I am too, but people seem upset by this stuff.

Universities are publicly funded. They are, therefore, extensions of government. They must, it follows, not only respect freedom of speech, but instill the value of free speech and open minded questing for information in their students or fail at their duty to educate. That they are not doing so is a concern, since the leaders of tomorrow will be coming from campuses where they are trained to react violently to speech which contradicts their world view. These students will be in charge of the government in another generation.

This is not just about Nazis. Ben Shapiro is occasionally annoying, and always arrogant, but he's certainly not a Nazi or a white supremacist. He's an orthodox Jew, in fact, and the Nazis and white supremacists seem to hate him more than they do any other living person. Yet it requires 600 riot police to keep back screaming 'progressive' protestors just because he's there to give a speech to people who want to listen to him? Insanity.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 08:22:54 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2017, 09:49:19 pm »
Universities are publicly funded...

Actually, my question was specifically to BCS as he/she wanted to either throw a spanner into the works, or refuse to talk about how to define acceptable engagement and so on.

You have given a good start to the discussion though.

Online bcsapper

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2017, 10:33:38 pm »
Actually, my question was specifically to BCS as he/she wanted to either throw a spanner into the works, or refuse to talk about how to define acceptable engagement and so on.

You have given a good start to the discussion though.

No I didn't.  I guess I didn't give you the answer you were looking for, but it's only because speech doesn't have to be acceptable to be free.

How was your trip to the gym with your wife/husband?
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Offline MH

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2017, 07:05:18 am »
1. Are we all agreed it's dumb?  I had no idea.  So much for that argument.

2. I generally only indulge in criticism, but what's wrong with insults?

1. Yes, sometimes.  The most important thing to me is 'why are we paying attention to it'?  If the answer is "well, because it's really dumb" then we can talk about why people think it's dumb and why it sometimes is and sometimes isn't.  If the answer is "we are paying attention to it because this is a new thing that we need to DO something about, as opposed to talk about, then that's different.  Then it goes back to my question of why haven't we had to handle this, after decades of dealing with an open society, etc.

2. So, if you want to just talk/vent then go ahead.  I can insult back too.

Offline MH

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2017, 07:08:05 am »
No I didn't.  I guess I didn't give you the answer you were looking for, but it's only because speech doesn't have to be acceptable to be free.

Sorry, to be clear you did eventually answer but initially said you weren't going to participate.  Furthermore, your answer makes sense to me.  FOX news will cover campus stupidity with high priority, as if it's end of days and will cover legitimate complaints about social issues within the same block of stories and the same tone.

It's almost like they're up to something.  Luckily, we can discuss things with more clarity here.

Quote
How was your trip to the gym with your wife/husband?

I SAID 'wife' - why wife/husband ? 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2017, 09:23:57 am »
1. Yes, sometimes.  The most important thing to me is 'why are we paying attention to it'? 

Why am I paying attention to Muslims? Because I am thinking longer term. That is the same issue I have with universities becoming places of indoctrination for far left anti-free speech beliefs. I can ridicule and mock ignorant twenty years olds if it pleases me but they don't really matter. What matters is twenty and thirty years down the line when they're in charge. If they are learning today that speech which is hostile to their views should be prevented that is definitely not healthy for the future of Canada.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online bcsapper

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2017, 10:17:29 am »
1. Yes, sometimes.  The most important thing to me is 'why are we paying attention to it'?  If the answer is "well, because it's really dumb" then we can talk about why people think it's dumb and why it sometimes is and sometimes isn't.  If the answer is "we are paying attention to it because this is a new thing that we need to DO something about, as opposed to talk about, then that's different.  Then it goes back to my question of why haven't we had to handle this, after decades of dealing with an open society, etc.

2. So, if you want to just talk/vent then go ahead.  I can insult back too.

We have.  We've just handled it poorly, imo.  The Americans have handled it better.  Other countries worse. 

I thought you meant response to insults in general. Being offended and all.  I never insult people, except in response to one.  Well, I think I might have said kook once, on a 9/11 thread.
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Online bcsapper

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Re: Is The College Intolerance Meme Bullshit ?
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2017, 10:24:56 am »
Sorry, to be clear you did eventually answer but initially said you weren't going to participate.  Furthermore, your answer makes sense to me.  FOX news will cover campus stupidity with high priority, as if it's end of days and will cover legitimate complaints about social issues within the same block of stories and the same tone.

It's almost like they're up to something.  Luckily, we can discuss things with more clarity here.

I SAID 'wife' - why wife/husband ?

Well, I've never seen Fox News, but I'm sure you're right.

I said "They didn't let women into the Royal Engineers when I was in there."

Why "...BCS as he/she wanted to..."?
Time for bed said Zebedee...