Author Topic: Interesting videos  (Read 8393 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2018, 08:49:59 am »
Well, I really enjoyed that although I didn't learn much.  His call for 3rd way liberal capitalism is pretty much where I have been politically.  What's odd to me is that you are promoting this and I am learning about it from you rather than the other way around.

I've never been an advocate of unrestrained Capitalism. Particularly since 2008. That doesn't mean I don't, as Haidt does, acknowledge it's tremendous value in providing wealth to society. It's because of my realization of how cruel (for want of a better term) Capitalism can be that I support a degree of Socialism in the system. The question is over the degree. How far to go, and how much damage it will do to 'dynamism' as he puts it. I found it interesting how he talks about a new and more ruthless style of capitalism arising from the US fixation on providing value to shareholders, and how this negates partnerships between business, workers, suppliers and customers in favour of a business takes all type of operation. I hadn't considered that before.

Quote
Did you note at the end where he says that if we don't "demonize" each other ? It's at 23:21.

I generally agree with him, but as I've said on numerous occasions, I don't turn the other cheek. Also, while I consider myself to be a Libertarian/Conservative mix, I am subject to the kinds of emotional/moral responses on certain subjects, which engenders a contempt for people holding certain positions (incl Fascists and Marxists).

 
Quote
The key to achieving the 3rd way that Haidt describes, is an open and clean information environment.  How to achieve this is, in his words, a "wicked" problem.

Yes, but achieving that when people are approaching things from entirely different viewpoints is difficult.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12466
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2018, 06:21:42 am »
1. I found it interesting how he talks about a new and more ruthless style of capitalism arising from the US fixation on providing value to shareholders, and how this negates partnerships between business, workers, suppliers and customers in favour of a business takes all type of operation. I hadn't considered that before.

2. I don't turn the other cheek. Also, while I consider myself to be a Libertarian/Conservative mix, I am subject to the kinds of emotional/moral responses on certain subjects, which engenders a contempt for people holding certain positions (incl Fascists and Marxists).

 
 

1. SHORT term value to shareholders too.  I remember the story from the 90s about IBM ending their lucrative mainframe leasing business, to sell them for big payouts and bonuses. 

2. "Turn the other cheek" is response to an attack, as suggested by Christian values.  Demonizing is about framing issues as Haidt has said but blaming and judging people rather than looking for 3rd ways.  Marxism is supposed to be an entirely rational response to history and economics, so certainly an emotional response isn't needed to such a thing.

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12466
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #77 on: September 26, 2018, 06:22:22 am »


The new Flyers mascot looks like an old prospector meth head. 

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2018, 12:23:59 pm »
1. SHORT term value to shareholders too.  I remember the story from the 90s about IBM ending their lucrative mainframe leasing business, to sell them for big payouts and bonuses. 

I think a big part of the problem is that so much of CEO compensation is tied to the stock price, so it's in the interests of the CEO to do whatever it takes to increase that stock price.

Quote
2. "Turn the other cheek" is response to an attack, as suggested by Christian values.

Well I guess I'm not that Christian.

 
Quote
Demonizing is about framing issues as Haidt has said but blaming and judging people rather than looking for 3rd ways.  Marxism is supposed to be an entirely rational response to history and economics, so certainly an emotional response isn't needed to such a thing.

You think Fascists are scum but Marxists are just well meaning tinkerers. I see both Fascists and Marxists as vermin, representing failed ideological systems which they know full well have caused untold death and destruction throughout their existence. Both groups are quite willing to see more such death and destruction in their fixation on their idiotic utopian goals. Both groups eat away at the foundations of Democracy and both groups need to be stepped on - hard.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8563
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2018, 02:50:47 pm »
I think a big part of the problem is that so much of CEO compensation is tied to the stock price, so it's in the interests of the CEO to do whatever it takes to increase that stock price.

Well I guess I'm not that Christian.

 
You think Fascists are scum but Marxists are just well meaning tinkerers. I see both Fascists and Marxists as vermin, representing failed ideological systems which they know full well have caused untold death and destruction throughout their existence. Both groups are quite willing to see more such death and destruction in their fixation on their idiotic utopian goals. Both groups eat away at the foundations of Democracy and both groups need to be stepped on - hard.

Here's some reading for your edification.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-communism-socialism-fascism-and-Marxism
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12466
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #80 on: September 26, 2018, 07:19:48 pm »
 
1. You think Fascists are scum but Marxists are just well meaning tinkerers. 
2. Both groups are quite willing to see more such death and destruction in their fixation on their idiotic utopian goals. 
1. Maybe that's true.
2. I don't think that's true of Marxists.  Fascists just want to repress peoples' rights as far as I know, although they also kill.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2018, 09:33:02 pm »
1. Maybe that's true.
2. I don't think that's true of Marxists.  Fascists just want to repress peoples' rights as far as I know, although they also kill.

There has never been a Marxist government which respected human rights. They and the Fascists have a 'vision' and to them, it's so important that individuals can and will be sacrificed on the alter of societal perfection. Both despise 'imperfection' in society, and that imperfection largely consists of people. Neither has been the least reluctant to do away with those imperfections in rebuilding their societies. You might think the Marxists today are better than the ones which we've seen in previous governments but they're not. They're exactly the same. Oh, as long as they talk about things in an academic way and have no power you don't get to see it. Put them in power, though, and you get the same thing as under a Fascist, because in both cases, the ends justify the means. Daniel Ortega is a good example. He got elected with 38% of the vote, promising he was no longer a Marxist but was now a 'democratic socialist'. He almost immediately set about castrating democratic bodies in Nicaragua and eliminating the possibility of anyone unseating him. The next election was a joke, as he cheated freely and barred foreign observers, and Nicaragua is going the way of Venezuela now, another 'socialist' paradise.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2018, 01:35:49 am »
I think a big part of the problem is that so much of CEO compensation is tied to the stock price, so it's in the interests of the CEO to do whatever it takes to increase that stock price.

Everything is incentivized to encourage short term gain.

Lehman Brothers CEO Dick Fuld collected something like $300 million in bonuses during the 5 years before Lehman Brothers was destroyed by its own business practices.  His firm had originated so many mortgages based on such little real assets that even a modest market correction could wipe out all of their equity. Which it did.

During the Clinton years, Alan Greenspan had steadfastly refused to entertain the idea of regulating financial derivative products, based on the idea that businesses would regulate themselves using prudence.  Companies wouldn't risk their long-term security for the sake of making a few quick bucks, right? Right?

Well, when everybody from the front line mortgage advisor to the CEO gets rewarded based on what they do RIGHT NOW, who can afford to think about long-term security?  Everybody got rewarded for issuing more and more mortgages RIGHT NOW.  Nobody was rewarded for making sure the company would still be around 5 years later.   When everybody gets rewarded for short-term thinking and nobody gets rewarded for long-term thinking, how could the outcome be anything other than what it was?

Dick Fuld told the Congress panel that he felt really really bad that a 150 year old company died under his watch.  But at least he had $300 million of performance bonuses in his bank account to ease the pain.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12466
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2018, 04:57:07 am »
1. There has never been a Marxist government which respected human rights.
2. They and the Fascists have a 'vision' and to them, it's so important that individuals can and will be sacrificed on the alter of societal perfection. 
1. I challenge that assertion, but I don't have the means to research it.
2. This is your opinion on history.  There's nothing in the ideology that says that.

The rest of your post is a mix of opinion and fact.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2018, 12:13:02 pm »
Well, when everybody from the front line mortgage advisor to the CEO gets rewarded based on what they do RIGHT NOW, who can afford to think about long-term security?  Everybody got rewarded for issuing more and more mortgages RIGHT NOW.  Nobody was rewarded for making sure the company would still be around 5 years later.   When everybody gets rewarded for short-term thinking and nobody gets rewarded for long-term thinking, how could the outcome be anything other than what it was?

Unfortunately, this is not just the problem with business but also our politics.

Quote
Dick Fuld told the Congress panel that he felt really really bad that a 150 year old company died under his watch.  But at least he had $300 million of performance bonuses in his bank account to ease the pain.

And he never got punished and he never had to give up any of his hundreds of millions, nor did any of the others involved.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2018, 12:20:48 pm »
1. I challenge that assertion, but I don't have the means to research it.
2. This is your opinion on history.  There's nothing in the ideology that says that.

You realize that Fascism and Marxism are similar in many respects, right? Certainly in terms of the state having complete control over the economy and society. The only real difference is the focus on nationalism in the latter, though the former often do this too, and that fascists still accept capitalism of a sort. Both are collectivist and shun the individual's value.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
Dislike Dislike x 1 View List

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2018, 12:23:43 pm »
Both are collectivist and shun the individual's value.

Capitalism does nothing for the individual either, it is all about power begets power.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2018, 12:39:26 pm »
Capitalism does nothing for the individual either, it is all about power begets power.

Granted but Capitalism at least brings us the wealth to pay for he things society needs. And there are tons of Capitalist states that have freedom and democracy. Marxists states - not so much.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2018, 01:22:12 pm »
the wealth

What exactly is wealth? Is it digits in some computer that account for who will get rewarded for your life and hard work?

True wealth should be measured in the resources of the nation (or world). Those resources are human (education, capability, ambition, and achievements) and environmental (raw, products and by-products).

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Interesting videos
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2018, 02:38:21 pm »
What exactly is wealth? Is it digits in some computer that account for who will get rewarded for your life and hard work?

It is the lack of poverty, the lack of malnutrition and starvation, the lack of people freezing to death in the dark, public health care and social services, public education, civil order and organization. Look at impoverished countries and you find none of these things because society can't afford to pay for them.

Quote
True wealth should be measured in the resources of the nation (or world). Those resources are human (education, capability, ambition, and achievements) and environmental (raw, products and by-products).

There are lots of impoverished countries with lots of natural resources. As for human resources, developing those requires money from some societal agency - generally the government. Government, in turn, has to get its money from society. Capitalism provides that wealth, because it provides the money to develop those natural resources, to pay for that education, and to make use of the skilled workers that education provides.

In that video of Haidt he shows a chart which demonstrates just how wealth has skyrocketed since Capitalism came into play. You might have a look at it.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum