Author Topic: Cancel Culture Culture  (Read 13907 times)

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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #765 on: November 08, 2022, 10:47:49 pm »


You: "I won't engage with people who post this kind of divisive invective, it lowers the quality of discourse."

Also you: Black Dog's #1 fan.

Look in the mirror, bud.

 -k
Actually I was commenting on the quality of the writing. Starting a paragraph like that makes you lose readers.
But I do love Black Dog. And waldo, of course, too.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #766 on: November 08, 2022, 11:46:31 pm »
If you're expecting a quote from her comparing trans people to blackface actors and calling them sexual fetishists and perverts, you won't find it (that was Magdelena Burns another one of your TERF heroines) but she's called transitioning "conversion therapy", stating that trans women are more likely to be sexual predators, and uses her massive platform to lie about the prevalence of surgical/chemical treatments being given to minors.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. No citations, just stuff that you're presenting 3rd-hand.  Gender-activist people (I'm trying not to say "woke", for Bubber's sake) read a completely benign statement like "women deserve single-sex spaces" and argue "well that may sound agreeable on the surface, but what she's really saying is that she believes that all trans people are predators, because otherwise why would women need female-only spaces?"   Gender-people might bristle at the comparison of transing gay kids to conversion therapy, but never actually address the fact that an extraordinarily disproportionate number of young women who "discover they're men" are same-sex attracted, or why the number of young women identifying as trans has increased by such an astonishing proportion in the span of just a few years, and they would prefer to just shut that conversation down by shouting "that's transphobic!" than engage with people who raise the issue.  Discussion over medical transition of minors... have you heard of the Cass Report? People like you, and Jon Stewart, and John Oliver, who want to believe that the science of all of this is well established (and that only transphobes and Republicans disagree) are in for a shock.  Rowling might be the highest-profile person expressing concern over this issue, but she isn't the only one, and the list of people calling for caution includes clinical psychologists and people with extensive experience in this field, and even members of WPATH have concerns. But again this is a case where it's easier for the activists and cheerleaders to shout "that's transphobic" than to actually address the concerns being raised.

This strategy of just repeating "oh, she has said many transphobic things, far too much to go into, just take our word for it" is intended to dodge those difficult discussions. 

Then there's the aforementioned pattern of cozying up to people who are vocal bigots, like child pregnancy defender Matt Walsh.

...and I doubt that you can point to any point where Rowling has "cozied up" to Matt Walsh. Or other GC women, for that matter. While a few GC women have applauded Walsh for bringing a new audience to the issue, most have criticized him for stealing their work, acting like he invented it, and then saying "why aren't any feminists talking about this???" to top it all off.

Has Rowling actually done anything of note/acclaim since the HP books?
Does it matter? She can't seem to stay out of the spotlight; meanwhile people like Radcliffe and Watson can only seem to find their way back into the public eye by virtue of their once-upon-a-time association with her.

But yes, I believe that sales of her non-Potter books would still be sufficient to qualify her as a successful author.

Maybe it's not about being liked or popular but being noticed.

people who are too dumb to understand "The Streisand Effect" have no doubt helped her make money over the past couple of years.

 -k
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #767 on: November 09, 2022, 12:35:43 am »
This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. No citations, just stuff that you're presenting 3rd-hand.

 -k

If this was any longer it’d be a lousy JK Rowling book.

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Gender-activist people (I'm trying not to say "woke", for Bubber's sake) read a completely benign statement like "women deserve single-sex spaces" and argue "well that may sound agreeable on the surface, but what she's really saying is that she believes that all trans people are predators, because otherwise why would women need female-only spaces?"

I'm not sure what sucks more: the deliberate misrepresentation of the claim (which was that Rowling stated trans women are more likely to be sexual predators, not that she said all of them were) or the strawman "gender activist people" you say make that claim.

Here's what Rowling said about trans women:"Only 2% of sexual offenders are female. 88% of sexual assault victims are female. Trans women retain male strength advantage and male patterns of violence and sexual offending."

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Gender-people might bristle at the comparison of transing gay kids to conversion therapy, but never actually address the fact that an extraordinarily disproportionate number of young women who "discover they're men" are same-sex attracted, or why the number of young women identifying as trans has increased by such an astonishing proportion in the span of just a few years, and they would prefer to just shut that conversation down by shouting "that's transphobic!" than engage with people who raise the issue.

Nothing says "I just want to talk about these isssueeees" like comparing gender-affirming approach to the horrific and homophobic practice of forced conversion therapy. Really sends the signal that you're open to discussion about the facts.

If you want to talk about the issue, consider just talking about the issues without invoking the "queers are brainwashing our kids" panic.

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Discussion over medical transition of minors... have you heard of the Cass Report?

The one that completely destroyed the idea that children are being rushed into medical transitions and doesn't actually contain any statistical evidence that puberty blockers or surgery are being thrust upon children and adolescents?

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People like you, and Jon Stewart, and John Oliver, who want to believe that the science of all of this is well established (and that only transphobes and Republicans disagree) are in for a shock.  Rowling might be the highest-profile person expressing concern over this issue, but she isn't the only one, and the list of people calling for caution includes clinical psychologists and people with extensive experience in this field, and even members of WPATH have concerns. But again this is a case where it's easier for the activists and cheerleaders to shout "that's transphobic" than to actually address the concerns being raised.

I think one would be forgiven in thinking the "we're just asking questions over here" rhetoric is pure bad faith when the actual policies being pursued and implemented by your allies consist of banning gender affirming care of any kind.

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...and I doubt that you can point to any point where Rowling has "cozied up" to Matt Walsh. Or other GC women, for that matter. While a few GC women have applauded Walsh for bringing a new audience to the issue, most have criticized him for stealing their work, acting like he invented it, and then saying "why aren't any feminists talking about this???" to top it all off.

Lol. This is exactly what i'm talking about in the point above. You claim to be interested in more research and more information blah blah blah, but the allies you're making who have actual power don't give a damn about that stuff. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.

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But yes, I believe that sales of her non-Potter books would still be sufficient to qualify her as a successful author.

She's coasting on name recognition.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 03:54:23 pm by Black Dog »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #768 on: November 30, 2022, 01:39:46 am »
I'm not sure what sucks more: the deliberate misrepresentation of the claim (which was that Rowling stated trans women are more likely to be sexual predators, not that she said all of them were) or the strawman "gender activist people" you say make that claim.

Here's what Rowling said about trans women:"Only 2% of sexual offenders are female. 88% of sexual assault victims are female. Trans women retain male strength advantage and male patterns of violence and sexual offending."

What you said she said: "trans women are more likely to be sexual predators"

What she actually said:
Only 2% of sexual offenders are female. 88% of sexual assault victims are female. Trans women retain male strength advantage and male patterns of violence and sexual offending. We know TW aren't all predators. However, the evidence shows that some are.

I notice that you forgot to include the part I bolded.

You claimed she said "trans women are more likely to be sexual predators". When someone uses the word "more" without stating more than what, it always looks suspicious. In this case, Rowling didn't directly make a claim of "more likely to be sexual predators" in her tweet.  Compared to cisgender women, then obviously yes, trans women are more likely to be sexual predators.

And she linked to research that supports that claim: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

This is again an example of a completely reasonable statement that most people would agree with, which trans activists have attempted to misrepresent.

Nothing says "I just want to talk about these isssueeees" like comparing gender-affirming approach to the horrific and homophobic practice of forced conversion therapy. Really sends the signal that you're open to discussion about the facts.

If you want to talk about the issue, consider just talking about the issues without invoking the "queers are brainwashing our kids" panic.

Trans activists are very happy throwing around comparisons of conversion therapy when it suits their purposes. In particular they like to claim that exploratory (as opposed to affirmative) therapy is conversion therapy.  They claim that trying to help kids with gender dysphoria live comfortably in the bodies they have is literally conversion therapy.

But yes. Many kids receiving "gender affirming care" would grow up to become cisgender gay people given the chance.

The one that completely destroyed the idea that children are being rushed into medical transitions and doesn't actually contain any statistical evidence that puberty blockers or surgery are being thrust upon children and adolescents?

It did no such thing. The UK clinical psychologists association response to the report:

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The publication of the interim findings of The Cass Review in February 2022 found the following:
  •     GIDS took an approach that was predominantly affirmative, rather than exploratory
  •     Assessment was not standardised
  •     Mental health and neurodevelopmental assessments were not conducted comprehensively, leading to ‘diagnostic overshadowing’ whereby gender dysphoria was attended to without taking into account any co-existing diagnoses
  •     Safeguarding processes were lacking
The scale of the demand for services
 
  •   There is evidence that a significant proportion of young people with gender dysphoria have comorbid neurodevelopmental conditions[1] and/or mental health difficulties[2]. They are also more likely to have experienced trauma[3] and other psychosocial difficulties than age-matched peers[4]. The new, regional services will need to offer robust, holistic and systemic multidisciplinary assessments in order to ascertain exactly what support and treatment each child and adolescent will need.
  •    As of May 2021, there were over 4000 young people on the GIDS waiting list[5], many of whom had waited up to three years for an assessment[6]. The closure of the service will substantially increase their anxiety and distress. Those young people – and their families – will need significant psychosocial support as the new services and pathways are developed.
Psychological and social factors
   
  •    Until 2011, the majority of young people referred to GIDS were male. Recent years have seen a sharp increase in the number of females presenting with gender dysphoria, with the most recent data indicating a ratio of approximately 3:1[7]. Psychologists will need to consider a complex array of social, political and cultural factors, as well as individual factors, when developing clinical formulations of distress with young people and their families.
  •    As psychologists, we are aware that many young people who experience same-sex attraction will, at some stage, question their gender identity or experience gender dysphoria[8]. They are also likely to behave in gender-nonconforming ways[9].
  •    Homophobia persists to some extent both within health and social care settings[10], and in wider civil society[11]. We need to better understand the possible relationships between the experience of homophobia and gender identity exploration and/or dysphoria in some young people[12].
  •    It is now clear that a proportion of young people who transition will detransition or have regrets later in life, possibly already having undergone irreversible pharmacological or surgical intervention[13],[14],[15].
  •    The health and social needs of this group are also likely to require input from a broad range of specialist services as they navigate the detransition process[16].
https://acpuk.org.uk/the-cass-review-and-its-implications-psychologically-informed-considerations-for-the-future/



I think one would be forgiven in thinking the "we're just asking questions over here" rhetoric is pure bad faith when the actual policies being pursued and implemented by your allies consist of banning gender affirming care of any kind.

I think you've confused JK Rowling with Ron de Santis.

Yes, Republicans have politicized this issue. But so have people like Oliver and Stewart in portraying this as Republicans vs the entire medical establishment. The truth of the matter is that the entire medical establishment is certainly not in consensus about how best to treat kids with gender dysphoria.  Despite what Stewart and Oliver told you on their shows, this issue is very much unsettled. Two weeks ago the New York Times published a major investigative piece on puberty blockers and Reuters published a major piece regarding the influence of social media on the explosion in numbers of teen girls seeking gender transition. Last week The Guardian also published a piece on the explosion in numbers of teen girls seeking gender transition.  These articles would have been unthinkable a couple of years ago, especially from NYT and The Graun. And these articles are being published now because the questions around this are becoming too big to be ignored.  All of these articles make the point that there is a lot of confusion within the medical community about what is going on.

In Finland, after initially going all in on affirmative care, put the brakes on it a couple of years ago. That decision was made by medical experts, not by politicians, as the Reuters article explains.  In wake of the Cass Report, the UK is also putting the brakes on affirmative care.

Questions *are* being asked and shouting "transphobe!" at everybody who dares to ask them isn't stopping it anymore.

Lol. This is exactly what i'm talking about in the point above. You claim to be interested in more research and more information blah blah blah, but the allies you're making who have actual power don't give a damn about that stuff. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.

I think  you've confused JK Rowling with Matt Walsh.

She's coasting on name recognition.

Whatever.  People can't stop writing articles about her, meanwhile Potter and Granger only get ink when they attack her.

 -k
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 01:41:57 am by kimmy »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Cancel Culture Culture
« Reply #769 on: November 30, 2022, 10:48:00 am »
What you said she said: "trans women are more likely to be sexual predators"

What she actually said:
Only 2% of sexual offenders are female. 88% of sexual assault victims are female. Trans women retain male strength advantage and male patterns of violence and sexual offending. We know TW aren't all predators. However, the evidence shows that some are.

I notice that you forgot to include the part I bolded.

You claimed she said "trans women are more likely to be sexual predators". When someone uses the word "more" without stating more than what, it always looks suspicious. In this case, Rowling didn't directly make a claim of "more likely to be sexual predators" in her tweet.  Compared to cisgender women, then obviously yes, trans women are more likely to be sexual predators.

So she didn't say so, but it was the obvious conclusion yet you're still taking issues with my characterization of what she said, even though you agree with it?

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And she linked to research that supports that claim: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

This is again an example of a completely reasonable statement that most people would agree with, which trans activists have attempted to misrepresent.

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I understand the “Swedish study” to be a single 2011 article published by Cecilia Dhejne and colleagues[1], in which the authors reported on mortality, suicidality, psychiatric care and conviction rates among individuals who transitioned in Sweden between 1973 and 2003. This study is widely but inaccurately cited by anti-trans groups on social media as evidence that trans women retain “male patterns” of criminality, an error repeated by Profs Freedman and Stock.

Dhejne herself rejected this interpretation explicitly in an interview with Cristan Williams of TransAdvocate in November 2015[2]. I attach the full relevant extract in Appendix B. A key point she makes is the study is “certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a **** risk” to cis women. Additionally, the study was not focused on investigating criminal behaviour, was drawn from a small cohort in one country, and only indicated a statistically significant increased risk of conviction for trans people who ‘underwent sex reassignment before 1989’:[3] a time when fewer opportunities and resources were available to trans people in Sweden, which may have resulted in increased criminalisation in a similar manner to other stigmatised groups. The authors therefore conclude that the best outcomes occur when individuals also receive long-term health and social care support in addition to any hormone therapy or surgery that they might require.

link

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Trans activists are very happy throwing around comparisons of conversion therapy when it suits their purposes. In particular they like to claim that exploratory (as opposed to affirmative) therapy is conversion therapy.  They claim that trying to help kids with gender dysphoria live comfortably in the bodies they have is literally conversion therapy.

They? Who, specifically, is "they"? Given your track record of conflating TRAs with "weirdos I found on the internet" a little clarity is in order IMO.

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But yes. Many kids receiving "gender affirming care" would grow up to become cisgender gay people given the chance.

Many? How many? How many receive gender affirming care turn out to be cisgender gay people anyway?

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It did no such thing. The UK clinical psychologists association response to the report:

It did exactly what I said it did. It cited long wait times for any sort of assessment (which blows up the idea that kids are getting rushed into medical transitions) and contained no statistics around use of puberty blockers or gender affirming surgery. The response you cited doesn't refute that at all, it confirms it:

Quote
As of May 2021, there were over 4000 young people on the GIDS waiting list, many of whom had waited up to three years for an assessment. The closure of the service will substantially increase their anxiety and distress. Those young people – and their families – will need significant psychosocial support as the new services and pathways are developed.

Three year waits just for assessment, not even referrals, treatments or follow ups. If that's not evidence that no one is being rushed into anything, i don't know what is.

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I think you've confused JK Rowling with Ron de Santis.

Yes, Republicans have politicized this issue. But so have people like Oliver and Stewart in portraying this as Republicans vs the entire medical establishment.

lol "one side wants to ban medical care and prosecute parents and the other wants kids to get treatment and it's impossible to tell which is good and which is bad."

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The truth of the matter is that the entire medical establishment is certainly not in consensus about how best to treat kids with gender dysphoria.  Despite what Stewart and Oliver told you on their shows, this issue is very much unsettled. Two weeks ago the New York Times published a major investigative piece on puberty blockers and Reuters published a major piece regarding the influence of social media on the explosion in numbers of teen girls seeking gender transition. Last week The Guardian also published a piece on the explosion in numbers of teen girls seeking gender transition.  These articles would have been unthinkable a couple of years ago, especially from NYT and The Graun. And these articles are being published now because the questions around this are becoming too big to be ignored. All of these articles make the point that there is a lot of confusion within the medical community about what is going on

Funny you should mention that Reuters piece:

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In 2021, about 42,000 children and teens across the United States received a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, nearly triple the number in 2017, according to data Komodo compiled for Reuters.
...
Over the last five years, there were at least 4,780 adolescents who started on puberty blockers and had a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis.
...
At least 14,726 minors started hormone treatment with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2017 through 2021, according to the Komodo analysis.
...
The Komodo analysis of insurance claims found 56 genital surgeries among patients ages 13 to 17 with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2019 to 2021. Among teens, “top surgery” to remove breasts is more common. In the three years ending in 2021, at least 776 mastectomies were performed in the United States on patients ages 13 to 17 with a gender dysphoria diagnosis, according to Komodo’s data analysis of insurance claims. [/quote]

For context, the population of people aged 12-17 in the US in 2021 was 26,154,652. So we're talking roughly 0.002% of the population being diagnosed with gender dysphoria, a tiny fraction of those going on puberty blockers and hormones and a minuscule number of those getting surgery. This is the epidemic that newspapers, networks and social media are freaking out about and using to feed a moral panic about all LGBTQ people?

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Questions *are* being asked and shouting "transphobe!" at everybody who dares to ask them isn't stopping it anymore.

So what's the problem? You're getting exactly what you want. Oh and LGBTQ people are being subjected to an organized hate campaign led by powerful politicians and media figures but I'm sure there's no connection.

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I think  you've confused JK Rowling with Matt Walsh.

I've known you long enough to know you aren't actually dumb enough to think these two streams of transphobia are actually separate and distinct but are part of the same continuum.

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Whatever.  People can't stop writing articles about her, meanwhile Potter and Granger only get ink when they attack her.

She only gets articles written about her for her stance on trans issues, no one cares about her writing at all.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 01:49:03 pm by Black Dog »