Author Topic: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain  (Read 401 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2021, 02:25:50 pm »

And yet, in your note in the top you said I'm 'free' to make comment.  And now you say I'm dangerous.  Hmmm.

That's right.  Notice how i don't propose curtailing your speech.  You're dangerous because you sound like you support the government sending men with clubs and guns to shut down other people's speech.  They already do that in this country at human rights tribunals and whatnot.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2021, 02:28:42 pm »
That's right.  Notice how i don't propose curtailing your speech.  You're dangerous because you sound like you support the government sending men with clubs and guns to shut down other people's speech.  They already do that in this country at human rights tribunals and whatnot.

You like to jump to hyperbolic examples when it’s not necessary.  No one comes for people with guns or clubs at human rights tribunals. 

And I bet you can’t even come up with an example of where someone’s right to speech has been infringed at one.  If you can, start a topic about it.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2021, 02:31:58 pm »
No.  I googled it, but its Wiki page is longer than the book I'm currently reading, so still no.

It says that political commercials are free speech.  So that anybody with enough money to buy all the airtime to dominate the airwaves with their ideas is welcome to do so.

How do you feel about it ?


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I disagree that the medium matters.  Other than it's hard to shout fire in a crowded theatre over the radio, I don't see why someone's right to express themselves should change based on the medium.

So you don't believe in the CRTC ?  You realize that it limits the airwaves and decides what can be broadcast right ?

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  Always with the understanding, of course, that the owner of the medium has the same rights, and can tell anyone they want to to go and jump in the lake.

That's a very American view but ok.

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I think you're over complicating the issue.  I don't think the idea of Freedom of Speech is what you describe here at all.  It's neither based on its use to spread good ideas nor does it matter whether anyone is served by it.

Well, what do you think then ?

Why do you think 'free speech' is a good thing to have ?
 
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Islam is certainly worthy of criticism above other religions.

I'm not saying it's not worthy of criticism.
 
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What other factors are there?

"how much those being criticized deserve it"

I don't know - there are lots of reasons you could criticize something.  But what is the positive effect of having free speech in a country above not having to worry about the government constricting you ?

Not that that's not a good reason - but I'm trying to understand why those who framed the idea of 'human rights' - the French Philosophers of the Enlightenment - valued it ?  What good comes from it ?

As I said, popular dissembley of ideas, criticism of those in power - the promotion of the best ideas.  Ok, so how do bad ideas die under this system ?  The people are convinced and the bad idea goes away.   And if it doesn't ?  What happens to the idea ?  Can it be used for other purposes ?

It seems to me conspiracy theories, hate theories and so on are bad ideas that are still with us.  So what happened ?  Did free speech work or did it fail ?  I'm asking these without prejudice, I don't have an answer but I feel that these questions do depend on media and need to be asked.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2021, 02:42:19 pm »
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That's a very American view but ok.

You just quoted an American Supreme Court ruling that has zero authority in Canada and you’re now complaining that the poster has an “American view” on free speech? 

LOL

However, I’m not sure what’s so American about that view….   It sounds like what we do here in Canada.  Media owners can tell people to go jump in a lake if they don’t want their message on their medium. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2021, 02:43:13 pm »
You like to jump to hyperbolic examples when it’s not necessary.  No one comes for people with guns or clubs at human rights tribunals. 

So if you don't show up after being summoned to a human rights tribunal what happens to you?

Do you know what a law is?  Every single law in this country is enforced, ultimately, by people with guns and clubs breaking into your house and dragging you away and throwing you in a cage.  Some are enforced by fines.  Don't pay the fines?  Here come the men with clubs and guns who will break into your house.  If you are ordered under arrest by a cop and don't comply I guarantee you they will take out their clubs and beat the crap out of you until you comply to the point where they can cuff you, drag you into the back of a squad car, and then put you into a cage.  Every law in this country is enforced with violence.  They will even take out their guns and kill you if they have to.

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And I bet you can’t even come up with an example of where someone’s right to speech has been infringed at one.  If you can, start a topic about it.

Their favorite whipping boy:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-ezra-levant-wrote-a-book-critical-of-the-liberals-now-hes-being-investigated

and

"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2021, 02:48:05 pm »
Because religion is full of terrible ideas that are terrible for society and need to be refuted. 

Because religious people are trying to legislate what I can/can’t do based on their twisted morality they get from an ancient book. 

Because there are a bunch of anti-vaxxer nuts who are using religion as a reason to not get vaccinated through some sort of twisted tenet of their myths. 

Because there are hundreds or thousands of indigenous children buried around the country because religious people didn’t consider their culture to be worthy of any respect.  And they need to be made to pay reparations for that.

I find those reasons, and many more, to be “useful”.

Those seem like good reasons.  What's next ?  What 'speech' do you plan to employ to achieve your goals ?  Are you going to post on here for example ? 

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Everyone is entitled to an opinion on abortion.  Mine isn’t worth less because I’m a man.  That’s what men have been telling women for centuries about their opinions.

I see - you're saying that even after centuries WOMEN DON'T LISTEN !  Great one, Perfect..

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I suppose his ethnicity is part Jewish…. 

Thank you.  What methods you think he should employ as a Jewish American liberal podcaster, to get the Taliban to convert ?

Like - a special episode - no Patreon needed or ?

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We are not talking about a formal speech like that given by a valedictorian.  We’re talking about the legal definition of the word.  Do you really not know the difference?

You asked ME how broadcasting is not speech ?  Now you are saying that it is. 

It's this: I'm making a point that free "speech" was developed at a time when we were literally talking about speaking and sometimes expressing ideas through writing.  By the very name of broadcasting, it is not 'speech'.

And legally it is not treated the same.


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How is that of any relevance?

They determined that TV air time IS free speech in America.  I'm not comfortable with that.  It equates a medium that is very expensive and can only be purchased by the wealthy with speaking outside, or printing bibles in your native language. 

The early days of radio and television were a test of what governments would do with these new media.  It's telling that Germany valued complete Freedom and gave Mr. Hitler's ideas access into the home without a conflicting idea.  Americans cared about making money with this new device.

Anyway, I digress. 

The FCC (America) forbade political comment without a counteracting response for decades, until the 1980s.    You folks might not care about these things so much but there are many people behind the scenes who do and they lobby government to make things go their way.

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Criticism of religions is absolutely not restricted in any way, so your diatribe on “free speech” is completely irrelevant.  Unless you’re arguing in favour of blasphemy laws, then we could discuss whether that would be a good idea or not.

My diatribe is on people who push the free speech button on everything without considering the history, the context and the complexity.

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You seem to be confusing what you think people should talk about with what people are allowed to talk about. 

I think you are confused.  Please read back and tell me where I said people shouldn't be allowed to talk about something.  I'll retract or clarify if you have an example.

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Yet you go on like all he does is make disparaging comments about Islam.

Mea culpa I should have watched the clip.  He's famous for an exchange on Bill Maher's show where he clashed with Ben Affleck who called him a racist for criticizing Islam.

 

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2021, 02:49:00 pm »
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So if you don't show up after being summoned to a human rights tribunal what happens to you?

You lose your case.

It’s not illegal to not show up. The Tribunal Police don’t come to your door.  A letter is sent to you with the particulars of your case and the judgement.

You have no clue how they work, yet you’re ready to say that they come with clubs and guns! 

LOL

Stop believing people like Ezra Levant.  The man is a lying turd.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 02:55:00 pm by Mr. Perfect »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2021, 02:50:05 pm »
Sam Harris criticizes all religions.

I think Mr. Perfect asked me if it would be better if he did just that and I answered 'yes'.

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It's not his fault that Islam has the worst ideas out of all of them. 

Is that your opinion ?  I can't tell from this.

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you don't want anyone to criticize these beliefs?

Happy misunderstanding day !!!

Let me repeat: If I said people should be prohibited from expressing an opinion, please quote it back and I will retract or clarify.

 

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2021, 02:54:54 pm »
The same legal standards to your speech (the legal sense…. Please try and keep that straight) apply whether on the street corner or on a TV or on the interwebs. 

No, you are wrong there.

I can't broadcast a TV station with the star spangled banner all day and night and get a license for example.

And - maybe a more political example - they wouldn't grant FOX news a license in Canada for a time.

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YES!  Now you’re getting it…. Speech can be dangerous, yet still allowable.  And these dangerous ideas need to be allowed to be refuted freely.

I'm not.  I criticized something, used my free speech and my ideas were not welcomed.  I was criticized for criticizing.  I don't get that.

   
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Just like many religious ideas are dangerous and should to be refuted.

Those ideas sure aren't dying, though. 

Isn't there something else we can do, short of banning them, to kill those ideas ?    Again - asking with an open mind and without prejudice.

It seems to me that bad ideas stick around too long.  And the internet makes it much worse

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2021, 03:02:01 pm »
You're dangerous because you sound like you support the government sending men with clubs and guns to shut down other people's speech. 

Well that's a lie.

Thanks for the free speech though.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2021, 03:02:05 pm »
No, you are wrong there.

I can't broadcast a TV station with the star spangled banner all day and night and get a license for example.

And - maybe a more political example - they wouldn't grant FOX news a license in Canada for a time.

Those aren’t regulations on speech.  You are very confused. 

The exact same things are illegal to say whether they are on a street corner, a TV or the interwebs.


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I'm not.  I criticized something, used my free speech and my ideas were not welcomed.  I was criticized for criticizing.  I don't get that.

No, your ideas were criticized.  Not the fact that you expressed them.

Why can’t you tell the difference?  I think you actually can, but you are being deliberately obtuse for some reason.
   
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Those ideas sure aren't dying, though. 

They are dying…. For example, we have gay marriage now.  Some churches have even started to ignore the tenets in their bible about gay people. 


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Isn't there something else we can do, short of banning them, to kill those ideas ?    Again - asking with an open mind and without prejudice.

It seems to me that bad ideas stick around too long.  And the internet makes it much worse

 The only way to fight bad ideas is to debate/criticize/ridicule these ideas.  I know of no other way.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2021, 03:06:33 pm »
You just quoted an American Supreme Court ruling that has zero authority in Canada and you’re now complaining that the poster has an “American view” on free speech? 

How is it a complaint ?  They agree with a US supreme court ruling that would never fly in Canada.

It's like me commenting on someone stating that they have the right to bear arms... same thing.

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However, I’m not sure what’s so American about that view….   It sounds like what we do here in Canada.  Media owners can tell people to go jump in a lake if they don’t want their message on their medium.

Are you even Canadian ?  Do you know what CanCon is ?   Do you know how it works ?  We have a completely different approach to media here.

I'm really surprised by all of you.  Not 'disappointed' but surprised.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2021, 03:09:10 pm »
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I think you are confused.  Please read back and tell me where I said people shouldn't be allowed to talk about something.  I'll retract or clarify if you have an example.

If this is the case, then free speech laws are completely irrelevant to the discussion, yet you keep bringing them up. 

The only thing relevant to the discussion is whether you think there is utility in criticizing religions…. Why did you bring up free speech laws in the first place?

Now you’ve got Graham in a tizzy over the HR Tribunal Gestapo going door to door with clubs and guns!

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2021, 03:09:18 pm »
It says that political commercials are free speech.  So that anybody with enough money to buy all the airtime to dominate the airwaves with their ideas is welcome to do so.

How do you feel about it ?

Does it matter?  I support the decision, based on what you just said about it.  I don't know why this has to be repeated so often.  It doesn't matter what one thinks about the expression.  The freedom to express it is what matters.




So you don't believe in the CRTC ?  You realize that it limits the airwaves and decides what can be broadcast right ?

I don't know what else they do, but I don't support that. 

I remember when I was having trouble with my internet someone suggested informing the CRTC, that they would sort it out.  I would support that.



That's a very American view but ok.


The Americans are entitled to make whatever use they see fit of my views, if they want to.  I have no problem with that.


Well, what do you think then ?

Why do you think 'free speech' is a good thing to have ?
 

It's not that free speech is a good thing to have.  It's that denying free speech is a bad thing to do.

The person expressing themselves has no obligation to do so for the public good.


I'm not saying it's not worthy of criticism.
 

I know.  I do think you have a problem with the notion that it is more worthy of criticism than other religions though. 


"how much those being criticized deserve it"

I don't know - there are lots of reasons you could criticize something.  But what is the positive effect of having free speech in a country above not having to worry about the government constricting you ?

Not that that's not a good reason - but I'm trying to understand why those who framed the idea of 'human rights' - the French Philosophers of the Enlightenment - valued it ?  What good comes from it ?

As I said, popular dissembley of ideas, criticism of those in power - the promotion of the best ideas.  Ok, so how do bad ideas die under this system ?  The people are convinced and the bad idea goes away.   And if it doesn't ?  What happens to the idea ?  Can it be used for other purposes ?

It seems to me conspiracy theories, hate theories and so on are bad ideas that are still with us.  So what happened ?  Did free speech work or did it fail ?  I'm asking these without prejudice, I don't have an answer but I feel that these questions do depend on media and need to be asked.
 

It doesn't matter what good comes of it.  There is no need for a positive effect.  The trick is in avoiding the negative effect of denying the speech.  There is no good that comes from denying the Holocaust.  But can you really imagine punishing someone for doing so?

It's like the example I brought up the last time we discussed this issue.  The poor fellow who went to jail for the racial abuse, on Twitter, of some footballer who died for a while during a game.  Absolutely no good would come from allowing his comments.  But he went to jail because they weren't. 

That's far worse.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How Religious Fundamentalism Hijacks the Brain
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2021, 03:10:15 pm »
Those aren’t regulations on speech.  You are very confused. 

Yes.  For example the Citizens United judiciary said exactly that.

If Broadcasting is 'speech' and broadcasting is restricted by law why are such restrictions not limits on free speech ?

You don't get a license to speak in public, so very difficult for me to understand you.  It feels like I'm telling you things that you haven't heard before and you are answering for the first time.

Which is fine if that's the case.
 
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No, your ideas were criticized.  Not the fact that you expressed them.

Well ok.

   
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They are dying…. For example, we have gay marriage now.  Some churches have even started to ignore the tenets in their bible about gay people. 

I guess you are right.  It's taking a long time to kill the beast though.

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The only way to fight bad ideas is to debate/criticize/ridicule these ideas.  I know of no other way.

You missed a big one: IGNORE