Author Topic: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?  (Read 15824 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #480 on: July 06, 2022, 02:02:28 pm »
1. Ad hominem, not an argument, therefore ignored.

2. As I've said all along.  His political stances are hit and miss and sometimes toxic so whatever, most people will agree or disagree based on their personal politics. His psychology on the other hand is brilliant.

People confuse the 2 all the time because they come from the same person but it's totally irrelevant anyways, h8ters gonna h8.  Feel free to h8.
1. I'm not arguing with HIM, so I can disparage him.  I'm not arguing against his points either here.  I'm issuing an opinion - which you may indeed ignore.
2. I don't need a psychologist, so I will defer to you on this one.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #481 on: July 06, 2022, 05:14:37 pm »
We all know many people who could use some good advice.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #482 on: July 06, 2022, 06:15:44 pm »
We all know many people who could use some good advice.

He’s great at Gish Gallop, which seems to fool a lot of people.

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #484 on: July 08, 2022, 09:40:03 pm »
No but he IS an idiot who is taking the place of a real public intellectual to foster unity in these troubled times.

As a unifying force I agree with you, he isn't that, he is a culture warrior in the culture war.  I would disagree that he's an idiot, though I would agree that he sometimes says things that range from "wrong" to "idiotic".  He infamously said to Cathy Newman that "in order to be able to think (my edit: or express those thoughts through speech), you have to risk being offensive".  So maybe you also have to risk sounding like an idiot sometimes too, especially when one gets emotional/angry as debates can get, and we all know Jordan is an intense dude who can be quick to anger.

Anyways, this is in your wheelhouse MH:  a long-form debate between educated people discussing ideas:  Sam Harris vs Jordan Peterson, moderated by Bret Weinstein.  An intellectual dark web face-off lol.



Debate is about morals, religion etc.  Harris is famously anti-religious.  Weinstein says in the intro that some of the important things that we have traditionally counted on in order to make sense of the world are collapsing, like the university, and journalism, etc.  So this debate is to try address meaning in our increasingly confusing world.

One of the things they agree on at the outset is that 1. moral relativism (there is no right and wrong) is bad, and 2. religious (and non-religious) dogma is bad.  They roughly define dogma as beliefs held as true (usually based on bad evidence) which cannot be questioned, and this dogma is enforced by some kind of punishment mechanism (ie: apostates put to death, or threats of your soul burning in hell).  They also mention political dogma that is bad, like how people who would speak out against the state in the Soviet Union were killed or jailed etc.  They then agree that this is why free speech is so important:  you're allowed to question any ideas freely, no matter how highly people regard them.

My opinion is that I agree with all of this.  And it shows why dictatorships are bad and why liberal democracy is good.  In liberal democracy we are guaranteed the right to speech, to question ideas, so that when possible we can discover flaws in our currently held ideas and improve upon them, and can also improve upon the law, and even amending the constitution.  This makes for a good, healthy society.  In dictatorships free speech is shunned, you aren't allowed to question the state and its laws and values etc, it is considered "dogma" and people are brainwashed to believe it, the same as religious dogma.  And so because certain powerful people want to cling to power, and don't want their ideas questioned, it is much harder and slower for society to improve, only until society collapses or some major crisis occurs where reevaluation can occur, like when the USSR fell, or Nazi Germany fell.

This is also why i'm ok with discussing any topic whatsoever., in the pursuit of knowledge  I may disagree with a biological racist or a holocaust denier, but if they claim to have good evidence of why they're correct, then we shouldn't mind hearing the evidence.  If they are wrong then the evidence will clearly counter their claims, which can then be ignored.  There should be no ideas that are elevated to the level of "dogma".  The argument that we should maintain dogma and enforce it with punishments for those who question it because there happens to be an idiotic fringe minority that can be whipped up into a frenzy by believing in fringe claims based on bad evidence is a weak argument, and not a reason to shut our ears to controversial subjects, because as Peterson says "in order to be able to think, we have to risk being offensive".  And it can be a great excuse for people who wish to enforce dogmatic ideas to never have to hear any counter-arguments and never be questioned.

I think we're living in a new age of dogma, where traditional religious dogma is being replaced by political and moral dogma, and "apostates" are being punished (ie: "cancelled"), sometimes rightfully, but sometimes unjustly, for questioning dogma and causing moral outrage akin to Christian grandmothers clutching their pearls 50 years ago.  Socrates was put to death by the state for question dogma.  He famously also believed that wisdom comes from recognizing one's own ignorance.

But then it also begs the question:  if our universities/schools, journalism outlets etc are being so politicized and failing in their duties, what can be done, if anything, about those without the skills or intelligence to think critically but tend to believe what they are being fed?  Example:  Jan. 6th.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #485 on: July 08, 2022, 11:03:01 pm »
What good evidence could their possibly be to deny the Holocaust?  That’s simply idiotic.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #486 on: July 09, 2022, 10:17:56 am »
What good evidence could their possibly be to deny the Holocaust?  That’s simply idiotic.

Well yes, but let's say numbers. Official numbers are around 6 million, what if someone said it was only 1 or 2 million.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #487 on: July 11, 2022, 03:10:20 pm »
Ad hominem, not an argument, therefore ignored.

As I've said all along.  His political stances are hit and miss and sometimes toxic so whatever, most people will agree or disagree based on their personal politics. His psychology on the other hand is brilliant.

People confuse the 2 all the time because they come from the same person but it's totally irrelevant anyways, h8ters gonna h8.  Feel free to h8.

No it's not.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #488 on: July 11, 2022, 03:13:35 pm »
One of the things they agree on at the outset is that 1. moral relativism (there is no right and wrong) is bad, and 2. religious (and non-religious) dogma is bad. 

that's...not what moral relatavism is.


Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #489 on: July 11, 2022, 07:35:30 pm »
that's...not what moral relatavism is.
No universal right or wrong.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #490 on: July 11, 2022, 07:39:39 pm »
No it's not.

You wouldn't admit it even if you thought it was.  Your thinking is very black and white.  You don't like him and therefore everything that comes out of his mouth is wrong.  You're not interested in discussing ideas, you're interested in pushing dogma because you want "your side" to win the culture war.  How boring and anti-academic.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #491 on: July 11, 2022, 09:03:33 pm »
No universal right or wrong.

That's a overly simplistic definition.

You wouldn't admit it even if you thought it was.  Your thinking is very black and white.  You don't like him and therefore everything that comes out of his mouth is wrong.  You're not interested in discussing ideas, you're interested in pushing dogma because you want "your side" to win the culture war.  How boring and anti-academic.

Brilliant:

Quote
“I dreamed I saw my maternal grandmother sitting by the bank of a swimming pool, that was also a river. In real life, she had been a victim of Alzheimer’s disease, and had regressed, before her death, to a semi-conscious state. In the dream, as well, she had lost her capacity for self-control. Her genital region was exposed, dimly; it had the appearance of a thick mat of hair. She was stroking herself, absent-mindedly. She walked over to me, with a handful of pubic hair, compacted into something resembling a large artist’s paint-brush. She pushed this at my face. I raised my arm, several times, to deflect her hand; finally, unwilling to hurt her, or interfere with her any farther, I let her have her way. She stroked my face with the brush, gently, and said, like a child, “isn’t it soft?” I looked at her ruined face and said, “yes, Grandma, it’s soft.”
― Jordan B. Peterson, Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief



Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #492 on: July 11, 2022, 09:08:04 pm »
No universal right or wrong.

So you think there are “universal” rights and wrongs?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 09:37:39 pm by Squidward von Squidderson »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #493 on: July 11, 2022, 10:16:12 pm »
So you think there are “universal” rights and wrongs?

Yes.

If nothing is true than everything can be permitted.  Sexually molesting young children, for example, is universally wrong.  Raping disabled or elderly people?  Also universally wrong.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #494 on: July 11, 2022, 10:30:42 pm »
Yes.

If nothing is true than everything can be permitted.  Sexually molesting young children, for example, is universally wrong.  Raping disabled or elderly people?  Also universally wrong.

Where do the universal morals come from?