Author Topic: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?  (Read 15798 times)

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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #135 on: March 06, 2021, 03:25:24 pm »
Postmodernism and critical theory aren't the same thing even if the latter does borrow from the former. You're moving the goalposts.

I can't tell if he's saying they're the same thing, or - as Zizek asks - if he is saying there are people who are calling themselves that.  The 2nd option would be more tenable... if he had any examples.  He doesn't, though.  He goes with something weak like "the reason *I* associate them... ".  And Zizek lets him off the hook by saying he knows what he means, and agreeing with him.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #136 on: March 06, 2021, 03:57:51 pm »
So they abandoned Marxism for a different ideology and you think that makes Petersons's point that postmodernism and marxism are the same thing? Come on.

He never said they're the same thing, that's a strawman.

Zizek, a Marxist, even tells Peterson in the video MH posted that he agrees with the main point he's trying to say.  He just asks "where are all these Marxist postmodernists"?  Uhmm has he been inside a university classroom in the last 10 years?

Critical social theory, postmodernism, and intersectionality have all built on each other over the last 100 years.  I would say postmodernism is the least political of the three theories.  As you say, postmodernism would actually reject Marxism as a meta-narrative.  It's really more accurate to call progressives today intersectionalists or critical social theorists, or people using postmoderism in a political way (which is a bastardization of postmodernism).  Even intersectionality isn't inherently political.  Breaking down some social phenomena by race, gender etc is simply a way of seeing things through different lenses and breaking down humans into different variables.  But people inevitably put a value judgement on variables they see as oppressed categories (racial minorities, women etc) vs the privileged (male, white).  Intersectionality is a popular theory increasingly seen in university classrooms over the last 10 years, and IMO has been politicized, with oppression and privilege being added to its definition and co-opted by feminists and other groups for political agendas, for better or worse.  I think it describes today's "woke" ideology very well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

"Intersectionality is an analytical framework for understanding how aspects of a person's social and political identities combine to create different modes of discrimination and privilege. Examples of these aspects include gender, caste, sex, race, class, sexuality, religion, disability, physical appearance,[1][2] and height.[3] Intersectionality identifies multiple factors of advantage and disadvantage."

So anyways, we can argue about definitions and terms, and we can argue that Peterson should use term X over term Y, but as Zizek says he knows the point that Peterson is trying to make.  I'm not arguing he can't make his point better.  He could maybe use a better word than "cultural Marxists", but most will know what he means when using the term.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #137 on: March 06, 2021, 04:51:28 pm »
Zizek is a bloody clown too.  He has 2 PhD’s in philosophy but still comes up with something monumentally stupid like supporting Trump over Clinton because the Dems aren’t running a candidate who is leftist enough for him.

Yeah, ok...  that’s a winning strategy right there. 

Both of these idiots are evidence that getting a PhD in social sciences is essentially a meaningless determiner as to your actual ability to be a rational thinker. 

Neither has anything got add to the grand conversations about society. 
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #138 on: March 06, 2021, 08:28:25 pm »
Both of these idiots are evidence that getting a PhD in social sciences is essentially a meaningless determiner as to your actual ability to be a rational thinker. 

Neither has anything got add to the grand conversations about society.

I think anyone who goes against the zeitgeist of society will be bombarded by people who are going to try to nail them to a cross.

There's no perfect academic, they're only as good as each of their arguments.  All ideas in our society need to be questioned, but some people are determined to destroy anyone who dares, which I suppose is natural.  Again, it's a culture war to control the zeitgeist.  Cultural hegemony.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #139 on: March 06, 2021, 08:33:29 pm »
1) supporting Trump over Clinton because the Dems aren’t running a candidate who is leftist enough for him.

2) Both of these idiots are evidence that getting a PhD in social sciences is essentially a meaningless determiner as to your actual ability to be a rational thinker. 

3)Neither has anything got add to the grand conversations about society.
1) Well... how much he "supported" is a question.  He sort of backtracked and just said he hoped Trump would win as it would hasten a leftist resurgence.  How did that go now ?  :D

2) You really think a lot of yourself, I am starting to figure out.

3) Of course not, because YOU haven't ascended yet.  Let's go Squid - get on the podium !

Online Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #140 on: March 07, 2021, 01:17:48 pm »
So anyways, we can argue about definitions and terms, and we can argue that Peterson should use term X over term Y, but as Zizek says he knows the point that Peterson is trying to make.  I'm not arguing he can't make his point better.  He could maybe use a better word than "cultural Marxists", but most will know what he means when using the term.

Jews?
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #141 on: March 07, 2021, 04:33:28 pm »

2) You really think a lot of yourself, I am starting to figure out.

True, I do not have self esteem issues, and I try and be a sceptic and a rational thinker.


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3) Of course not, because YOU haven't ascended yet.  Let's go Squid - get on the podium !

I never inferred that anyone should listen to my advice on a given topic, nor do I hold myself up as an expert.   

These guys do, and yet if you look at their own actions with a critical eye, they clearly are a couple of idiots. 
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #142 on: March 08, 2021, 06:49:40 pm »

The links between Marxism, postmodernism, and university academia are pretty clear.
only to those who have no idea what Marxism and postmodernism are. They’re mutually exclusive. You can’t be a Marxist, who believes in a grand narrative, and a postmodernist, which REJECTS grand narratives.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #143 on: March 08, 2021, 06:51:26 pm »
Jews?
Frankfurt School! They’re controlling everything!

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #144 on: March 08, 2021, 09:23:54 pm »
only to those who have no idea what Marxism and postmodernism are. They’re mutually exclusive. You can’t be a Marxist, who believes in a grand narrative, and a postmodernist, which REJECTS grand narratives.

Not sure I agree with all he's saying here, but from the horses mouth:

https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/philosophy/postmodernism-definition-and-critique-with-a-few-comments-on-its-relationship-with-marxism/

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It’s not as if I personally think that postmodernism and Marxism are commensurate. It’s obvious to me that the much-vaunted “skepticism toward grand narratives” that is part and parcel of the postmodern viewpoint makes any such alliance logically impossible. Postmodernists should be as skeptical toward Marxism as toward any other canonical belief system.

So the formal postmodern claim, such as it is, is radical skepticism. But that’s not at all how it has played out in theory or in practice. Derrida and Foucault were, for example, barely repentant Marxists, if repentant at all. They parleyed their 1960’s bourgeoisie vs proletariat rhetoric into the identity politics that has plagued us since the 1970’s. Foucault’s fundamental implicit (and often explicit) claim is that power relations govern society. That’s a rehashing of the Marxist claim of eternal and primary class warfare. Derrida’s hypothetical concern for the marginalized is a version of the same thing. I don’t really care if either of them made the odd statement about disagreeing with the Marxist doctrines: their fundamental claims are still soaked in those patterns of thought.
...
So: postmodernism, by its nature (at least with regard to skepticism) cannot ally itself with Marxism. But it does, practically. The dominance of postmodern Marxist rhetoric in the academy (which is a matter of fact, as laid out by the Heterodox Academy, among other sources) attests to that. The fact that such an alliance is illogical cannot be laid at my feet, just because I point out that the alliance exists. I agree that it’s illogical. That doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
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Online Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #145 on: March 08, 2021, 09:47:11 pm »
Not sure I agree with all he's saying here, but from the horses mouth:

https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/philosophy/postmodernism-definition-and-critique-with-a-few-comments-on-its-relationship-with-marxism/

Jordan Peterson: "Then again, coherence isn’t one of (postmodernists) strong points."

Also Jordan Peterson:

 
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #146 on: March 08, 2021, 09:52:10 pm »
Frankfurt School! They’re controlling everything!

Marx and many critical theorists from the Frankfurt School were Jewish, but I don't think there was a "Jewish conspiracy", I think it's simply that there were lots of Jews in Germany pre-WWII and many of them were well-educated.

Critical theory from the Frankfurt School is pretty much mainstream leftist thought.  Add intersectionalism and you have 2021 in a nutshell.  Critical theory is Marxism expanded to all social spheres beyond economics:

"Critical theory: Marxist-inspired movement in social and political philosophy originally associated with the work of the Frankfurt School. Drawing particularly on the thought of Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud, critical theorists maintain that a primary goal of philosophy is to understand and to help overcome the social structures through which people are dominated and oppressed.".

https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-theory

Not sure I agree with Peterson's focus on postmodernism over critical theory and intersectionality.  But there would be no postmodernism without critical theory, and there would be no intersectionalism without those 2 prior philosophies.  And a lot of these 3 theories have links with Marxism, in the case of postmodernism in its philosophical roots and some of its theorists maybe rather than the theory itself.  Most university students graduate as intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers.  Many are socialists, feminists, critical race theorists etc.  I graduated uni with this thinking too.  It's very clear that these philosophies absolutely dominate universities in recent years, and have spread into wider society.
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Online Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #147 on: March 08, 2021, 09:54:24 pm »
Marx and many critical theorists from the Frankfurt School were Jewish, but I don't think there was a "Jewish conspiracy", I think it's simply that there were lots of Jews in Germany pre-WWII and many of them were well-educated.

Critical theory from the Frankfurt School is pretty much mainstream leftist thought.  Add intersectionalism and you have 2021 in a nutshell.  Critical theory is Marxism expanded to all social spheres beyond economics:

"Critical theory: Marxist-inspired movement in social and political philosophy originally associated with the work of the Frankfurt School. Drawing particularly on the thought of Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud, critical theorists maintain that a primary goal of philosophy is to understand and to help overcome the social structures through which people are dominated and oppressed.".

https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-theory

Not sure I agree with Peterson's focus on postmodernism over critical theory and intersectionality.  But there would be no postmodernism without critical theory, and there would be no intersectionalism without those 2 prior philosophies.  And a lot of these 3 theories have links with Marxism, in the case of postmodernism in its philosophical roots and some of its theorists maybe rather than the theory itself.  Most university students graduate as intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers.  Many are socialists, feminists, critical race theorists etc.  I graduated uni with this thinking too.  It's very clear that these philosophies absolutely dominate universities in recent years, and have spread into wider society.

lmao the absolute state of this.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #148 on: March 08, 2021, 10:07:44 pm »
If you go to university in recent years and you're an sympathetic person (aka decent human being) it's very hard not to graduate as an intersectional Marxist sympathizer given that most every course in the social sciences and other fields are going to teach about intersectionalism and Marxist lenses.  The actual validity of those philosophies is a discussion for another day.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #149 on: March 09, 2021, 06:25:31 am »
... are going to teach about intersectionalism and Marxist lenses.   

You are falling into the Peterson trap by putting these two together.  Remember above ?  Where I showed you when we dismantled the term "post modern Marxism" ?

Really it's "woke" people, and "woke" is a question of degrees of wokeness... you can't stop it, since you are more "woke" than your grandparents were