Author Topic: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?  (Read 15770 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2021, 03:39:30 pm »
Not all left are woke i agree.  Sguiggy isn't woke.

From Laverne & Shirley ?  I always took him to be an Eisenhauer guy.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2021, 04:01:19 pm »
I'm not looking for equal outcomes. I'm looking to eliminate barriers altogether, which isn't immediately possible in most cases. That means I'm looking for equitability not equality in the interim. In any case, I think this completely misses the point that post-modernism isn't something that you create or happens. It's something that exists or has always existed. It's a theory that describes how things are. A massive oversimplification of post-modernism is that there are multiple perspectives on things and how those things appear depends on where you're coming from. Think of the young lady-old hag picture or the duck and bunny picture. That's not something that's created. It's just a way of conceptualizing how things are.

Edit to add: Taking what I said above, that makes the whole "anti-postmodernist" thing a bit bizarre. As bizarre as say being "anti-gravity." That's great that you don't believe in gravity but do you have a better explanation that's testable and observable in a scientifically rigorous way? But then again, what more can you expect from a crowd who "doesn't believe" in "evolution" because it's "just a theory."

What I mean by a "postmodernist" is someone who believes the theory and uses those concepts in how they frame the world in their own minds, and then uses these concepts to form policy and hiring practices etc.  ie: By breaking people down into different groups, who all have different levels of power and influence and perspectives, and applying different values to different groups based on perceived current or historical oppressed status, and treating people differently based on their perceived level of power based on their group status.

An anti-post-modernist is somebody who doesn't believe in the validity of this theoretical framework, and/or doesn't believe in its use for policy, at least not consciously, preferring the status quo, which naturally benefits groups who have more power, like men or white people or straight or rich people.  Peterson doesn't seem to have a very good view of postmodernism, which I disagree with him on since I find the theory brilliant (yes, we're simplifying the theory, it can be broad and vague), for me it's all about how far you take it.

Postmodernism isn't quite the same as gravity.  Gravity is a scientific phenomenon you can prove in a lab with specific physical laws.  Postmodernism is a theoretical framework created by the human mind as a lens to view and explain the social world, no different than any other philosophical theory, which is not hard science, but social science and not proven by hard maths and physics.

I think most people's problem on the left with Peterson's take on postmodernism is that he doesn't like how much it has dominated thought in the humanities in academics and by extension greater society, while many on the progressive left disagree with him.  Cyber you're an academic university type and seem to agree with much of the recent postmodern critical theory coming out of the universities, things like microaggressions and whatnot.  So I understand why you don't agree with Peterson.  You guys are on 2 opposing sides of the culture war, and it's become a very bitter war.  I find myself kind of in the middle, I can empathize with both sides, and don't want to be too extreme either way.  I style myself a 90's or 2000's leftist on a lot of things, which is more a Bill Maher liberal type thinking and not so much 2021 woke.  Trouble is if you're me or Bill Maher you seemed pretty progressive left-wing in 2002, but now those same thoughts seem conservative in comparison to 2021 progressiveness.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2021, 04:52:05 pm »
Really?  Which part?  Be specific.

Well for starters, he frequently ties postmodernism together with Marxism. The notion that a school of thought that rejects grand narratives and one that is centred around a single grand narrative are compatible and complementary is hilarious.

here's a good breakdown of his failures to understand PoMo thought. Here's another.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2021, 05:29:12 pm »
What I mean by a "postmodernist" is ...

It already means something !  Pick a new word.  Peterson picked "Postmodern Marxist"... which is a silly oxymoron but HE'S an academic so it looks worse on him than you.

Just say "woke" - we all know what it means. 
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2021, 07:11:16 pm »
Well for starters, he frequently ties postmodernism together with Marxism. The notion that a school of thought that rejects grand narratives and one that is centred around a single grand narrative are compatible and complementary is hilarious.

There's a strong history of Marxist thought in universities in France.  Pol Pot was educated in a French university and was turned onto Marxism there.  You're telling me Derrida wasn't a Marxist at some point?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specters_of_Marx

The links between Marxism, postmodernism, and university academia are pretty clear. 
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2021, 07:23:23 pm »
He already conceded that he was winging it, in his discussion with Zizek

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2021, 08:52:09 pm »
There's a strong history of Marxist thought in universities in France.  Pol Pot was educated in a French university and was turned onto Marxism there.  You're telling me Derrida wasn't a Marxist at some point?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specters_of_Marx

The links between Marxism, postmodernism, and university academia are pretty clear.

What are the links between French Marxist philosophers and current university academia, other than Peterson’s crackpot assertions?  I’m dying to know.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2021, 10:20:35 pm »
There's a strong history of Marxist thought in universities in France.  Pol Pot was educated in a French university and was turned onto Marxism there.  You're telling me Derrida wasn't a Marxist at some point?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specters_of_Marx

The links between Marxism, postmodernism, and university academia are pretty clear.

They're completely antithetical philosophies dude.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #128 on: March 06, 2021, 01:57:48 am »
He already conceded that he was winging it, in his discussion with Zizek

Where?  Show us the specific link.

I just watched this debate of them.  Zizek concedes the point that Marxists turned to postmodernism when it was becoming clear in the 1960's that Marxism in practice (Stalin, Mao) had been disasterous.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #129 on: March 06, 2021, 02:07:17 am »
They're completely antithetical philosophies dude.

In what way?  Be specific.

How is breaking down power structures by race, gender etc. using critical social theory any different than breaking down power structures by economic class?  Marxism is postmodernism in the sphere of economics.  Both theories break down an oppressor/oppressed dynamic.  Critical race theorists and Marxist are both fighting for the oppressed classes over the powerful and destroying power hierarchies.  How are they ANY different besides the oppressed groups they local on?

Find me a critical postmodern theorist and how many of them are also anti-capitalists and/or Marxist sympathizers?  Darn well all of them.  Not saying there's anything wrong with that,  but
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2021, 02:15:06 am »
What are the links between French Marxist philosophers and current university academia, other than Peterson’s crackpot assertions?  I’m dying to know.

They literally conceptualized postmodernism and critical theory.  Scholars like Foucault and Derrida.  Critical race and gender theory is kind of a big deal in today's universities.  In the humanities fields it is an obsession, for better or worse.  There's academics that criticize Classics like Homer and Plato because some claim they are sexist racist white supremacist works.  There's high school teachers literally removing these ancient works from class curriculum for these reasons:  https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/12/31/teacher-proud-removing-homer/

The roots of intersectionalism comes from critical theory and postmodern philosophy.  Microaggressions don't just come from thin air, they have intellectual underpinnings.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2021, 05:41:37 am »
Where?  Show us the specific link.

I just watched this debate of them.  Zizek concedes the point that Marxists turned to postmodernism when it was becoming clear in the 1960's that Marxism in practice (Stalin, Mao) had been disasterous.



When Zizek brings up Foucault at the end, Peterson's word game is up... but then our slobbering, charming, kind-of Marxist uncle moves on rather than going for the kill.

The strategy for him, I was convinced, was to win over the audience and not the so-called debate.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2021, 05:43:41 am »
And because we all seem to be following intellectual honesty here, Peterson was clear that he was playing with language. He conceives that there are no postmodern Neo marxists but that he "associates them".

Maybe it's honest, maybe he got caught.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2021, 01:19:48 pm »
In what way?  Be specific.

How is breaking down power structures by race, gender etc. using critical social theory any different than breaking down power structures by economic class?  Marxism is postmodernism in the sphere of economics.  Both theories break down an oppressor/oppressed dynamic.  Critical race theorists and Marxist are both fighting for the oppressed classes over the powerful and destroying power hierarchies.  How are they ANY different besides the oppressed groups they local on?

Find me a critical postmodern theorist and how many of them are also anti-capitalists and/or Marxist sympathizers?  Darn well all of them.  Not saying there's anything wrong with that,  but

Postmodernism and critical theory aren't the same thing even if the latter does borrow from the former. You're moving the goalposts.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2021, 01:21:40 pm »
Where?  Show us the specific link.

I just watched this debate of them.  Zizek concedes the point that Marxists turned to postmodernism when it was becoming clear in the 1960's that Marxism in practice (Stalin, Mao) had been disasterous.

So they abandoned Marxism for a different ideology and you think that makes Petersons's point that postmodernism and marxism are the same thing? Come on.